Hi Christoph :) - Nice to see you!
Hi all,
Christoph Noack wrote on 20-08-15 15:39:
> Am Mittwoch, den 19.08.2015, 13:48 +0000 schrieb Katarina Behrens:
>> Hello world,
>>
>> I started this discussion, so it's about time I also contribute
>> something to it:
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>> The main issue I have with status quo is this duality between "File
>> -> Printer settings" and "File -> Print -> $some_printer ->
>> Properties". In other words, settings of the printer and
>> document/page-specific settings that can be (and often are) entirely
>> different.
Yep, printing is a complicated task.
With a new printer or in a print shop that I only visit occasionally, I
always seek advice for settings.
In LibreOffice, the 'order' to know (as far as I understand) is:
1 - Default printer for document (File > Printer settings)
2 - Page settings in page style
* page format and default paper tray for default printer
3 - Print-what options (File > Print > LibreOffice $Application
(and Tools > $Application > Print )
* hide/show certain content, color/bw, automatically inserted
blanc pages
(* but also 'print-where': [ ]paper tray from printer settings
(same as in page style. I expect, options is General, and
Page style has preference) )
(* and also 'print-how': [ ] brochure )
4 - Print-how options (File > Print > Options, partly)
* adaption of size, multi page
5 - Print-where options (File > Printer > Properties and
File > Print > Options, partly)
> As far as I remember earlier discussions, it exists for two "reasons":
> 1. Change printer / document print options without actually printing
> something (e.g. for getting access to printer trays in page format
> settings for non-default printers).
This still is valid. And IMO in the proper place, in the file menu.
>> Then, things like tdf#92676
>> (https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92676) happen --
>> user goes to printer settings, sets something up, saves and thinks
>> this is how his document's going to be printed, but it ain't the
>> case, because the document/page settings will be used instead.
As far as I am aware, the most problems by far are indeed with the
experienced conflict between Page style (size/orientation) and Printer
settings.
>> There's of course this "use only paper * from printer preferences"
>> checkbox that makes it possible to override document settings with
>> printer settings, but how many users know about it?
So, ugly UX hack (sorry for even daring to suggest ;) ):
In the File > Print dialog, on the first Tab (General) add below the
list Printer en > details, a button: "..printer settings in stead of
document/page settings" leading to the fourth tab (Options)
This
- shows where to find the desired behavior (well, not really - see
Christophs remark below)
- indicates that there are document/page settings.
Then
- on the fourth tab (Options) ad a button: "learn more on page settings
and influence on printing) or something like that.
I know, I'll burn in hell for this ugly suggestion, but... it directly
shows what is needed to solve majority of printing problems.
> It rather makes me think of: why should they? I quickly tested the use
> case above (changing the page orientation in the printer preferences)
> but Calc's output was unusable (because being cut-off).
> === 1. LibO Printing UI ===
>
> The LibO printing UI is cluttered and distributes (similar)
> functionality within different dialogs. Aim: One print preview,
> simplified access to print options.
> To me, this clean-up would require:
> * Harmonize the document Print Options (e.g. "Print text as black")
> from the printing dialog ("File -- Print... -- $option) and LibO
> options dialog ("
See my #3 above.
> * Remove "File -- Printer Settings...". Plus, to enable access to non
> -default printer trays, add printer selection capabilities to the
> page layout dialogs ("Format -- Page -- Page: Paper Tray").
Would be fine for me.
Mind this allows (via page styles) directing different pages of one file
to different printers :)
> * If possible, remove "File -- Print Preview...". Move required
> functionality (e.g. display facing pages) to the print preview in
> the print dialog.
Apart from missing details because the view is small, it totally misses
the options that File > Print preview for Calc.
So this is not going to work from that side.
(Possibly there are also performance differences: current preview in
File > Print <> File > Print Preview ?)
> === 2. Document Page Settings vs. Printer Page Preferences ===
>
> As the article by Microsoft suggests, we may not address all issues
> related to page layout. Especially since LibO offers the capability to
> define numerous page layouts in the document - the printer preferences
> just offer one definition per print job.
>
> I miss the real needs by users,
I guess direct to another tray with same orientation, but different type
of paper..
> so I haven't a clear solution preference - just options:
>
> Option #1: Remove page size and portrait settings from the printer's
> preferences.
> * Pro: Easy to achieve
> * Con: Things can still go wrong (e.g. printer settings by OS). We need
> to make users aware of issues we can identify (e.g. wrong page format)
> and inform them -> see idea of Info Bar in print dialog
Indeed, see my UX-hack before.
> Option #2: Extend #1 by access to document page layout options (like
> "Format -- Page...") via e.g. button
> * Pro: Direct access to document options
> * Con: Different page layouts different to understand
and the risk for changing a lot in the document, if applied without
proper thought..
> Option #3: Re-arrange print dialog to directly contain and use (e.g.)
> page size and portrait settings.
> * Pro: Improved WYSIWYG
> * Con: Technical feasibility? Effort?
> * Details (examples for a UI control for page orientation):
> * If the document print range contains only "Portrait" pages, pre
> -select "Portrait".
> * If the document print range contains only "Landscape" pages, pre
> -select "Landscape".
> * If the document print range contains both Portrait and Landscape
> pages, show "Automatic". (Document settings are used)
Looks attractive. But indeed, may need much effort.
> * If the user changes the setting, the new setting is applied to
> the whole print range (as if the user would have changed the
> document page layout, and its aligned with the printer setting).
This results in the same as tick "use only paper * from printer
preferences".
> Per default, this setting is valid for the given print dialog
> session only. Per user demand, the setting can be applied to the
> document settings (image something like a "make setting sticky"
> appearing after the user changed the default selection).
I would not support this.
It may cause unexpected problems in the document.
And look at my UX-hack: that puts emphasis on showing how the printing
actually works at the same moment that the user wants to change Portrait
to Landscape.. What is the most faced problem.
> * Special case for Calc ("Print Selection"): "Automatic" will pre
> -select the orientation that makes most sense for the given
> selection.
Interesting..
> * Examples
> [...]
> === 3. Enable Proper Saving and Loading of Document Print Options ===
>
> As previously explained, once the document print options are sorted
> out, they should be properly saved and loaded.
I miss an overview of (cant find easily) what isn't stored, and what
settings influence it.
Cheers,
Cor
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