Regarding "Relying on a non-official source for accreditation information
has its own risks that should be taken seriously." - That isn't how it
works - in the third column over on https://www.acab-c.com/members/, the
link is to the official source, which is what we review.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 3:16 PM Ryan Sleevi <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 4:03 PM Tim Hollebeek <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Ben,
>>
>>
>>
>> The policy requirements should be structured to match the policy goals.
>> You have mentioned two important ones, which I agree with.  The first can
>> be solved by requiring the use of ACAB’c templates.  The second points to a
>> legitimate issue that the NABs/CABs need to solve.  Relying on a
>> non-official source for accreditation information has its own risks that
>> should be taken seriously.
>>
>
> Tim,
>
> I don't want to belabor this point, but you haven't highlighted if, how,
> or why you believe WebTrust is different. WebTrust is organizationally and
> functionally the same as ACAB'c in this regard, as far as professional
> association goes. Do you believe WebTrust is only valid if the US or
> Canadian governments recognize it - knowing full well they reject such
> audits as being insufficient?
>
> This reply seems to demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding about the
> role of CABs/NABs, or that there is some value that is not yet articulated.
> The burden of proof rests on you to demonstrate what this value is - and
> what these risks are, that you believe should be taken seriously. You have
> not yet done that.
>
>
>> There’s also no guarantee that ACAB’C membership will be free in the
>> future.  Organizations change.  ACAB’c could also adopt membership rules
>> which some organizations are unable to comply with.
>>
>
> Again, how is this functionally different from WebTrust, which charges a
> licensing fee and which has restrictions on who can join? This is a point
> that goes back 20 years, in particular, during the discussion of Scott
> Perry as an auditor who was *not* WebTrust licensed at the time and not a
> CPA. I mention Scott as an example, because Scott S. Perry is who DigiCert
> has used as their auditor (and which was recently acquired by Shellman).
>
> The argument here does not establish why Mozilla should be concerned about
> free or not. Similarly, the point that ACAB'c "could" do something is
> nothing more that unsubstantiated FUD, because it ignores the fact that if
> there was a negative development, Mozilla - or anyone else - could respond
> if necessary.
>
> As was pointed out internally, ACAB’C is a very small association of
>> mostly French and German auditors, with very few members.  As much as I
>> appreciate their work on templates and other issues, I don’t think forcing
>> people to join another organization is a good thing for organizations to
>> do, no matter how well-intended it is.  It takes away their agency, which
>> will certainly put a damper on their desire to participate.
>>
>
> This is the closest we've got to actually establishing the substance of
> your objection, but it is entirely unclear what bearing it should have on
> this discussion. By this logic, requiring WebTrust licensed auditors is an
> equally unacceptable imposition - do you agree or not?
>
> Is there some point you believe is being overlooked? This message is full
> of conclusions, but lacks the logical footing necessary to reach those
> conclusions. If you think it's being misunderstood, please articulate.
>
> The fact that NABs/CABs have not solved this issue, that there has been
> years of discussion with ETSI, and that fundamentally the organizational
> goals of NABs/CABs is specifically to support that of Supervisory Bodies,
> and is not aligned with browser needs, appears to be entirely discarded
> here. There's zero reason to believe that continuing on the present course
> is somehow going to lead somewhere differently, other than in the abstract
> ideal state.
>
> I don't disagree that there are arguments being made here, but their
> arguments that are easily refuted, or which don't logically hold. I hope
> I'm overlooking something.
>

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