Thanks Alexadre - just some context here.
Yeah - I personally sympathise with the community-friendliness of
MariaDB for sure. But also reality is such that MySQL is more likely
to be chosen by "big commercial users" I am afraid. ASF is
generally a
commercially-friendly organisation - i.e. we provide everything for
free, but we realise that our users make business with our software,
and we do not want to "limit" them in any way there. So the fact
that
such db is "community" friendly is sadly (but justifiably), quite
secondary as long as it complies with our licencing policy and it
should not guide our decisions I think.
We equally support Presto and Trino for example (speaking of similar
situation) and "it's easier to integrate our CI with Trino, because
they publish and maintain docker images" was really the only
criteria
we had for switching Presto integration to Trino when they split
(without judging the community friendliness of either of those).
In the case of MariaDB, only recently the SKIP LOCKED functionality
was added and we've had MySQL tested and used while Airflow 2 was
developed - that is why MariaDB was not even considered before and
MySQL has won the race there.
J.
On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 2:56 PM Alexandre Vermeerbergen
<avermeerber...@gmail.com <mailto:avermeerber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> To further clarify: we use MariaDB rather than MySQL because for
us,
> MariaDB is clearly more community-friendly than MySQL.
>
> Remember that MySQL is provided by ORACLE : they have a long
track of
> record for making communities' life hard, with closed source items
> (suck as Java TCKs), and bizarre redistribution restrictions aimed
> confusing users between what's allowed for free vs. paid licenses.
> They recent "Java 17 is free" move "but only for 2 years" (in
small
> prints) is yet another example of it.
>
> On the other hand, MariaDB is endorsed by its foundation, with
diverse
> sponsors including huge companies, which gives us a sense of
> durability and trustfulness.
>
> Disclaimer: all this is based on my impressions, which I share -
but
> I'm sure others will disagree and I fully respect that.
>
> Thanks for this debate, in any cases, and whatever the outcome
will be!
>
> Alexandre
>
> Le dim. 7 nov. 2021 à 14:41, Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com
<mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>> a écrit :
> >
> > Yeah - looking at some big users who DO use MySQL, I agree that
IF
> > (and this is a huuuge if) we ever decide on removing MySQL, the
lead
> > time and preparation to that must be in years rather than
months. So
> > It's quite unlikely to happen IMHO.
> >
> > However - maybe another question (since I have some people's
attention
> > already :) )
> >
> > How do people rate the need for MariaDB support (touched by
Alexandre
> > briefly) ??
> >
> > For now our approach is (that's my interpretation of it at
least - but
> > maybe others have different views/expectations):
> >
> > "It is very close to MySQL, maybe it works, maybe it does not,
but we
> > do not support it nor spend any effort on it. Occasionally
some users
> > contribute some fixes specifically for MariaDB, but it does not
make
> > us "support it" in any way"
> >
> > In most circumstances where users raise some DB-related issues
with
> > MariaDB, rhis (as I see it at least and this is my approach)
leads us
> > to: "MariaDB is not supported, please switch to MySQL" (unless
of
> > course the problem is trivial).
> >
> > I have a number of "sub-questions" here:
> >
> > * Do other committers understand it the same way?
> > * Do we state it clearly enough?
> > * Is this an acceptable approach from the user's point of view
> > (knowing that it saves a lot of effort for the community as a
whole)?
> > * Do the users who have MariaDB understand it the same way?
> >
> > I wonder how many users of MariaDB we have out there and what
do they
> > feel about this "statement/level of support"?
> >
> > Or maybe indeed there is a need for more "full support" (with
tests),
> > or maybe the idea in the discussion about us stating that
MariaDB for
> > us is "best effort" (though we seem to not spend virtually any
effort
> > on it).
> >
> > I think we have a range of options here - they are no 0/1
choice and I
> > just wonder if the current "approach" is good and can be
improved
> > somehow (and whether it needs to be improved at all)?
> > I also think it would be great to make sure we align
expectations of
> > different community members here (in case they are not aligned
of
> > course) and be very precise about our statement/level of
support for
> > MariaDB
> >
> > WDYT?
> >
> > J.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 11:14 PM Xinbin Huang
<bin.huan...@gmail.com <mailto:bin.huan...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Agreed with Elad and XD.
> > >
> > > Personally, I +100 to get the elephant out of the room, but
it'll also post challenges to some companies.
> > > Here at Stripe. Postgres is not an option provided by the DB
team and switching from MySQL means that the team needs to either
push the DB team to support Postgres or manage Postgres themself. It
may not be trivial to get an approval on either of these.
> > >
> > > If we decide to do this, we'll need to spread the news way
ahead of time.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Bin
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 4:36 AM Elad Kalif <elad...@apache.org
<mailto:elad...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I can tell that for us at Wix - migrating to Postgres is not
going to be simple nor fast.
> > >> We get alot of services from our DBA team because we are
using MySQL. Think of it like a partially/semi managed Airflow.
> > >> Removing support for a database feels to me like something
we should give a heads up. This is not just a feature we are
removing.
> > >> Companies may have work to do in "preparing the ground"
before they can actually migrate so if we are notifying about
dropping MySQL support only when we release Airflow 3 this may be a
problem.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 12:41 PM Jarek Potiuk
<ja...@potiuk.com <mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Just to be clear. IF we get rid of MySQL this means no
support for
> > >>> MariaDB either.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 11:30 AM Alexandre Vermeerbergen
> > >>> <avermeerber...@gmail.com
<mailto:avermeerber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > To be more precise:
> > >>> > +1 to get MySQL out
> > >>> > +1 to get MariaDB official support - we're running
Airflow with
> > >>> > MariaDB without troubles and we're reluctant to move to
Postgres, as
> > >>> > we have no admin skills on that later and lots on MariaDB
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Le sam. 6 nov. 2021 à 11:24, Alexandre Vermeerbergen
> > >>> > <avermeerber...@gmail.com
<mailto:avermeerber...@gmail.com>> a écrit :
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > +1 let the Elephant get out from the room - a jungle in
a better place
> > >>> > > for Elephants that rooms :)
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Le sam. 6 nov. 2021 à 11:18, Jarek Potiuk
<ja...@potiuk.com <mailto:ja...@potiuk.com>> a écrit :
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > Hey everyone,
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > Some of us had a discussion about MariaDB support here
> > >>> > > > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/18506> and as
a result I think
> > >>> > > > this might be a good time to talk about the Elephant
in the room we
> > >>> > > > have.
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > I would like to know what others think about the
potential of REMOVING
> > >>> > > > MySQL support in future Airflow versions ?
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > I believe for quite some time MySQL is the "Elephant
in the room" for
> > >>> > > > us, and it's one of the things that already slows us
down when we add
> > >>> > > > new features and when at some point we start thinking
about Airflow 3,
> > >>> > > > maybe, just maybe we could think about removing
support for it.
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > Why thinking about removing MySQL?
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > Quoting the quote of Kaxil from our discussion " "Do
less but do them
> > >>> > > > well". We are relying more and more on more
sophisticated features and
> > >>> > > > queries of the underlying DB and this has already hit
- especially the
> > >>> > > > people who developed new features but also those who
helped others
> > >>> > > > with issues.
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > There are multiple problems with MySQL: deadlocks,
encoding problems,
> > >>> > > > support for different query constructs we have and
they keep on
> > >>> > > > reappearing. I personally developed quite negative
feelings for MySQL
> > >>> > > > while working on Airflow.
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > Some more context:
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > * All the Airflow-As-A-Service providers are using
Postgres now as of Airflow 2.
> > >>> > > > * It seems from some discussions with people - that
migration from
> > >>> > > > MySQL to Postgres is possible and we could even
develop a tool for
> > >>> > > > that for users who would like to migrate in Airflow 3.
> > >>> > > > * We also have MsSQL - which is fresh but I think
there might be
> > >>> > > > stronger reasons for people to use it - especially if
they are in
> > >>> > > > Azure/MS "world" (but we could also consider dropping
it as well)
> > >>> > > > * I do not think there are "super-strong" reasons
why people would
> > >>> > > > like to stick to MySQL. Yes, there are people who
prefer it - but in
> > >>> > > > our case the DB is really an "internal" piece of
Airflow. I can
> > >>> > > > imagine people use Postgres only for Airflow even if
for the majority
> > >>> > > > of other things they use MySQL.
> > >>> > > > * MySQL was 25% last time we checked:
> > >>> > > >
<https://airflow.apache.org/blog/airflow-survey-2020/> but I bet a
lot
> > >>> > > > of that was Composer 1.* (Which with Airflow 2 is
gone).
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > I wonder what others think?
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > J.
