Hi Ahmad, thanks for the updates! I've spent some time looking at the changes and have added some comments and questions. I've pointed out a couple things for future work that I think will be important, but nothing that needs to be changed for this PR in my mind. Looking forward to seeing your responses, other community feedback, and ultimately a merge of the provider - take care!
On Thu, Mar 6, 2025 at 7:28 AM Ahmad Farhan <ahmad.farhan9...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello again! > After several days of debugging and branch restructuring I managed to > create another PR https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/47446, this is > due > to major merge conflicts after the www clean up. > The renaming of the provider to apache-tinkerpop is done but I kept the > integration testing as 'gremlin' to avoid the conflict/confusion with the > server name within the CI. > > Please review the PR thoroughly and I am happy to work on the following > steps. > > Thanks, > Farhan > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 7:43 PM Ahmad Farhan <ahmad.farhan9...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I did look into the naming and I thought that it would need to be > > discussed at some point before the lazy consensus stage after the dev > work > > is done but I guess I was wrong :) > > > > I read through some docs regarding the naming and I kept thinking that > > Apache Gremlin might not be right, so I decided to remove 'Apache' from > all > > doc strings. One thing that popped in one of the documentations from > > Microsoft that says Apache Gremlin (here > > https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/cosmos-db/gremlin/introduction) > > which confused me. > > > > I will change the folder to apache/tinkerpop. Thanks Stephen for the > > in-depth explanation. > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 6:56 PM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > > > >> Cool. I will let Ahmad comment, but I think we found the **someone** who > >> will help in case there are some future issues with the > Tinkerpop/Gremlin > >> provider. > >> While I like Gremlin better (it's just a cool name and I like the logo, > >> tinkerpop has a cool logo as well > https://tinkerpop.apache.org/index.html > >> ). > >> > >> So as long as we decide not to use common.graph -> I am fine with both > :) > >> > >> j. > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 7:42 PM Stephen Mallette <spmalle...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 12:57 PM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > > In the interest of ASF trademarks, I would suggest it be called > >> > > "apache/tinkerpop" with "Gremlin" naming reserved for operators and > >> the > >> > > like, as it is now with GremlinOperator. I think this makes sense > >> because > >> > > it is connecting to TinkerPop-enabled systems via Gremlin. I would > >> > > similarly suggest that references to "Apache Gremlin" and the like > >> become > >> > > "Apache TinkerPop". > >> > > > >> > > That's an interesting one - indeed TinkerPop is the PMC/ Framework - > >> > > Gremlin is the language. > >> > > > >> > > I am not sure we are actually using TinkerPop here - because > >> TinkerPop is > >> > > the whole framework - Ahmad, can you explain the relation there - > are > >> > those > >> > > other systems simply implement Gremlin as language or do they use > >> > TinkerPop > >> > > for something / as a backend? > >> > > > >> > > >> > I'm sure Ahmad could answer but I'll quickly offer my take. I think > >> that in > >> > this case we should prefer "TinkerPop" over Gremlin as a top-level > name > >> > particularly because it's prefixed with "Apache" and there is no > "Apache > >> > Gremlin" which I tend to think is confusing when the words are that > >> close > >> > together. I can't recall over the years just how many times I've asked > >> for > >> > corrections in blog posts. :) > >> > > >> > Because that's a bit of a conceptual difference here. For example in > the > >> > > provider we are importing https://pypi.org/project/gremlinpython > not > >> > > "tinkerpop" - and it also does not have tinkerpop as dependency. > >> > > > >> > > >> > A bit of history goes along with a lot of our naming for what we term > >> > Gremlin Language Variants (GLVs), like gremlinpython, which are > >> variants of > >> > Gremlin natively implemented to allow users to express Gremlin in the > >> > idioms of their own language. They also provide driver connectivity to > >> > compatible servers. TinkerPop has mostly inherited all of its language > >> > variants, including gremlinpython which was the first, from > third-party > >> > community developers. As a project, we didn't really get a hand in the > >> > naming so with those projects already in heavy use we just kinda of > >> stuck > >> > to it and even doubled-down (like when we built gremlin-go within the > >> ASF). > >> > > >> > I think in this case, your project organization under "apache" seems > to > >> > almost lend itself nicely to apache/tinkerpop. i think users will > >> recognize > >> > it as equally as they recognize Gremlin. > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > I wonder if Gremlin is also a Trademark by Apache ? Maybe we should > >> ask > >> > > tinkerpop PMC what they think about it? > >> > > > >> > > >> > Gremlin is not an ASF trademark. That was debated for quite a long > time > >> > with trademarks@ along with deciding if Gremlin, the character and > his > >> > friends[1], were to be protected. In the end, for reasons I'm not > sure I > >> > quite remember, the ASF didn't think it was necessary. > >> > > >> > Anyway, I'm not sure if you noted my earlier post[2] but I'm one of > the > >> > original contributors to Apache TinkerPop, even before we brought it > to > >> the > >> > ASF so I'm pretty familiar with our project. :) > >> > > >> > [1] > >> > > >> > > >> > https://github.com/apache/tinkerpop/blob/master/docs/static/images/tinkerpop3-splash.png > >> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/9hf4t8hyk944fyo4q3nygczyo5xhk18y > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > J. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 4:55 PM Stephen Mallette < > >> spmalle...@apache.org> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On 2025/02/26 12:38:02 Jarek Potiuk wrote: > >> > > > > Yeah . `apache/gremlin" seems like a better option then. Does > >> anyone > >> > > have > >> > > > > anything against it? > >> > > > > >> > > > In the interest of ASF trademarks, I would suggest it be called > >> > > > "apache/tinkerpop" with "Gremlin" naming reserved for operators > and > >> the > >> > > > like, as it is now with GremlinOperator. I think this makes sense > >> > because > >> > > > it is connecting to TinkerPop-enabled systems via Gremlin. I would > >> > > > similarly suggest that references to "Apache Gremlin" and the like > >> > become > >> > > > "Apache TinkerPop". > >> > > > > >> > > > > I think we are pretty happy with accepting "other > >> > > > > apache" projects as providers, so I see no issue with Gremlin - > >> > knowing > >> > > > > that we can always reach out to our friendly Apache Community in > >> case > >> > > of > >> > > > > any issues. So - unless we do not hear any "opposition" in a few > >> > days, > >> > > I > >> > > > > think it would make sense if you start `[LAZY CONSENSUS]` > thread - > >> > > > > without a need for `[VOTE]` thread. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > One thing though that I would love to have - is to also have an > >> > > > integration > >> > > > > test if possible (we had it with apache.kafka for example) - > those > >> > are > >> > > > > tests that could run **some** graphdb database locally (via > >> > > > docker-compose) > >> > > > > and run a very rudimentary checks against a "real" database, > not a > >> > > mocked > >> > > > > call. That would make it more robust. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > More about integration tests, how to build, run, test them and > >> > > integrate > >> > > > > them in our CI can be found here: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > https://github.com/apache/airflow/blob/main/contributing-docs/testing/integration_tests.rst > >> > > > > - happy to help if you are stuck with it. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > J. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:25 PM Ahmad Farhan < > >> > > ahmad.farhan9...@gmail.com > >> > > > > > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I pushed changes to move the provider into the “apache” > >> directory. > >> > > > After > >> > > > > > updating the class references across the project, I re-tested > >> and > >> > all > >> > > > tests > >> > > > > > passed. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Regarding the use of Gremlin (or another graph query language > >> like > >> > > > Cypher > >> > > > > > and SPARQL) for a common package approach, here are my > thoughts > >> on > >> > > the > >> > > > pros > >> > > > > > and cons: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > pros (I can see only one): > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > - Gremlin has been widely adopted by different cloud > vendors > >> > (e.g. > >> > > > Azure > >> > > > > > Cosmos DB with Apache Gremlin and AWS Neptune) as well as > in > >> > > > self-hosted > >> > > > > > environments. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > cons: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > - Gremlin, Cypher (native for Neo4j) and SPARQL each have > >> their > >> > > own > >> > > > > > drivers for executing queries. > >> > > > > > - To achieve a common abstraction, a wrapper around each > >> driver > >> > > > would be > >> > > > > > required. Each driver has its own connection parameters, > >> > > underlying > >> > > > > > protocols, and may need method overrides for compatibility > >> with > >> > > > > > different > >> > > > > > Python versions. > >> > > > > > - Not all vendors support every query language; for > instance, > >> > > > Gremlin > >> > > > > > for Neo4j has been deprecated in recent releases, while > >> Cosmos > >> > DB > >> > > > does > >> > > > > > not > >> > > > > > support Cypher or SPARQL. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > While it would be ideal to have a unified graph query language > >> and > >> > > > driver > >> > > > > > that works seamlessly across different vendors, such a > solution > >> > does > >> > > > not > >> > > > > > exist at the moment. In my opinion, implementing > >> provider-specific > >> > > > > > solutions for each query language (Gremlin, Cypher, SPARQL) is > >> more > >> > > > > > realistic and practical given the current landscape. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Happy to discuss further or answer any questions! > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Farhan > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 11:33 AM Ahmad Farhan < > >> > > > ahmad.farhan9...@gmail.com> > >> > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I have worked with two different graph database > vendors—Azure > >> > > Cosmos > >> > > > DB > >> > > > > > > and Neo4j. During our migration to Neo4j, we discovered that > >> > using > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > Gremlin language wasn’t possible; we were forced to rewrite > >> all > >> > our > >> > > > > > queries > >> > > > > > > into Cypher, which is the native language for Neo4j and, in > my > >> > > > > > experience, > >> > > > > > > much simpler for querying. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > This situation highlights a key challenge for a common > >> > abstraction: > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > underlying query languages and connection/authentication > >> > mechanisms > >> > > > vary > >> > > > > > > significantly. Gremlin is not only different from Cypher in > >> > syntax > >> > > > but is > >> > > > > > > also deprecated for Neo4j (see > >> > > > > > > > >> https://tinkerpop.apache.org/docs/3.7.3/reference/#neo4j-gremlin > >> > ). > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The question would be how can the common approach > accommodate > >> > these > >> > > > > > > different query languages? > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 7:36 PM Jarek Potiuk < > >> ja...@potiuk.com> > >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Without deep looking at the code I love the idea - it's > very > >> > > > similar to > >> > > > > > >> what we have for common.sql and common.io - and soon > >> > > > common.messaging > >> > > > > > - I > >> > > > > > >> also - long time ago - suggested common.dataframe that > >> someone > >> > > could > >> > > > > > >> submit > >> > > > > > >> using Apache Ibis: > >> > > > > > >> > >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/qx3yh6h0l6jb0kh3fz9q95b3x5b4001l > >> > > - > >> > > > > > >> similarly I believe there was an idea about common.llm ... > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> I think the "common" pattern is a great one for Airflow, to > >> > build > >> > > > on top > >> > > > > > >> of > >> > > > > > >> "other giants" who build those common abstractions that you > >> can > >> > > > easily > >> > > > > > >> switch between different implementations of various data > >> access > >> > > > layers. > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> My suggestion and question - would be however (not very > >> strong > >> > on > >> > > > it, I > >> > > > > > >> would love to hear what others think, I know it's been > >> somewhat > >> > > > > > >> contentious > >> > > > > > >> when I started the ibis discussion) - would be to make it > >> > > > > > "common.graph", > >> > > > > > >> "common.dataframe" - instead of "apache.gremlin" or > >> > "apache.ibis" > >> > > - > >> > > > just > >> > > > > > >> to > >> > > > > > >> stress that those are not implementations of particular > >> service > >> > > but > >> > > > > > >> opinionated choice of particular technology to do "common" > >> > > > operations. > >> > > > > > >> This > >> > > > > > >> is what essentially "common.io" is . - it should be named > >> > > "fsspec" > >> > > > > > >> provider > >> > > > > > >> if we were to name it by the "library" that implemented it. > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> J. > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 8:22 PM Ahmad Farhan < > >> > > > > > ahmad.farhan9...@gmail.com> > >> > > > > > >> wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > Hi Everyone, > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > I’ve created a draft PR ( > >> > > > https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/46977 > >> > > > > > ) > >> > > > > > >> to > >> > > > > > >> > introduce and discuss a new provider for using > Gremlin—the > >> > graph > >> > > > > > >> traversal > >> > > > > > >> > language of Apache TinkerPop (more details here: > >> > > > > > >> > https://tinkerpop.apache.org/gremlin.html). Gremlin is > >> > > supported > >> > > > by > >> > > > > > >> > various > >> > > > > > >> > graph database vendors such as Azure Cosmos DB and Amazon > >> > > Neptune. > >> > > > > > >> > Previously, I had to develop a custom hook to query data > >> from > >> > > > Azure > >> > > > > > >> Cosmos > >> > > > > > >> > DB using Apache Gremlin. > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > I managed to create a provider and run it locally on the > >> main > >> > > > branch. > >> > > > > > >> > However, I ran into the BaseHook issue ( > >> > > > > > >> > https://github.com/apache/airflow/issues/45233) on that > >> > branch, > >> > > > so I > >> > > > > > >> ended > >> > > > > > >> > up testing it fully on the v2-10-test branch. The PR > >> should be > >> > > > > > complete, > >> > > > > > >> > but I’ve kept it as a draft for now while we discuss the > >> > > provider. > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > I’m a new contributor, so I’m especially eager to hear > your > >> > > > feedback. > >> > > > > > >> > Comments on the PR is very welcome, and please feel free > to > >> > > reach > >> > > > out > >> > > > > > >> with > >> > > > > > >> > any questions via email or Slack. > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > Thanks, > >> > > > > > >> > Ahmad Farhan > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@airflow.apache.org > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@airflow.apache.org > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >
