On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 01:45AM, Evans Ye wrote:
> Yes, I've updated the wiki.
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/BIGTOP/Bigtop+Provisioner+User+Guide
> 
> Then I guess we're all good.
> Thank you both Andrew and Cos for fixing this.
> 
> I'm thinking that we can take one step further which is to setup a CNAME
> pointing to
> repos.bigtop.apache.org --> bigtop-repos.s3.amazonaws.com

Great idea! Love it - INFRA-10710.

> So that the default repo in puppet recipe as well as vagrantconfig.yaml can
> be fixed w/o updating with releases. And this can be helpful for migration
> if we find resources to host our artifacts.
> 
> Evans
> 
> 
> 2015-11-03 6:19 GMT+08:00 Konstantin Boudnik <[email protected]>:
> 
> > And done, including the update for the dist repo files and the "How to
> > Release" wiki page. Thanks for setting up the bucket, Andrew!
> >
> > Evans, do we need to update anything else?
> >   Cos
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 02, 2015 at 01:52PM, Andrew Purtell wrote:
> > > Thanks Cos!
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Centos bits are up (the rest are still in-flight). So if anyone wants
> > to
> > > > give
> > > > it a try, new repos are at:
> > > >
> > > > [bigtop]
> > > > name=Bigtop
> > > > enabled=1
> > > > gpgcheck=1
> > > > type=NONE
> > > > baseurl=
> > > > http://bigtop-repos.s3.amazonaws.com/releases/1.0.0/centos/6/x86_64
> > > > gpgkey=https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/bigtop/KEYS
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [bigtop]
> > > > name=Bigtop
> > > > enabled=1
> > > > gpgcheck=1
> > > > type=NONE
> > > > baseurl=
> > > > http://bigtop-repos.s3.amazonaws.com/releases/1.0.0/centos/7/x86_64
> > > > gpgkey=https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/bigtop/KEYS
> > > >
> > > > Once everything is uploaded I will update the repo file for the 1.0 on
> > the
> > > > dist.
> > > >
> > > > Please report here if you find any issues with these two. Thanks!
> > > >   Cos
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 02, 2015 at 06:28AM, Brian Long wrote:
> > > > > Just wanted to volunteer to test as well, really appreciate the work
> > you
> > > > > guys are doing!
> > > > > On Nov 1, 2015 9:14 PM, "Konstantin Boudnik" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Andrew, I will test it in the morning and if everything is
> > fine
> > > > we
> > > > > > should have at least official 1.0 back online.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cos
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Nov 01, 2015 at 06:06PM, Andrew Purtell wrote:
> > > > > > > I sent credentials for an IAM user with permissions on those
> > buckets
> > > > to
> > > > > > > private@bigtop.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <
> > [email protected]
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > how we can upload the content to the buckets you have created?
> > I
> > > > think
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > to push out signed 1.0 bits, that I still have locally, and put
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > inconvenience behind us.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Please let me know how I can get the credentials for the
> > bucket.
> > > > > > Thanks!
> > > > > > > >   Cos
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 05:35PM, Andrew Purtell wrote:
> > > > > > > > > I don't really care but what's wrong with the ones I already
> > > > claimed?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <
> > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It might be some sort of name-retention policy in action
> > on AWS
> > > > > > part.
> > > > > > > > Ah...
> > > > > > > > > > well, a lesson for the future.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Shall we get the bucket 'asfbigtop' to make it clear in the
> > > > future?
> > > > > > > > > >  Cos
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 03:07PM, Andrew Purtell wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> Then unfortunately we should just move on, unless we want
> > to
> > > > try
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > get it
> > > > > > > > > >> from the current owner (using a trademark claim?). That
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > least
> > > > > > > > > >> time consuming. Want to use one of the buckets I managed
> > to
> > > > > > reserve?
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 2:58 PM, Sean Mackrory <
> > > > [email protected]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>> Yeah I'm afraid the account is gone, and that bucket is
> > not
> > > > under
> > > > > > > > any other
> > > > > > > > > >>> account in our control. So if the bucket is not
> > available,
> > > > > > somebody
> > > > > > > > else
> > > > > > > > > >>> must have claimed it.
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Evans Ye <
> > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>> The best case is that Sean gets back with a news that
> > the
> > > > > > bucket is
> > > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > >>>> managed under Cloudera so that we might be able to
> > backup
> > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > out and
> > > > > > > > > >>>> then delete the bucket.
> > > > > > > > > >>>> The worst case is someone took bigtop bucket so that we
> > can
> > > > only
> > > > > > > > put 1.0
> > > > > > > > > >>>> packages in buckets created by Andrew and then update
> > the
> > > > 1.0
> > > > > > > > release repo
> > > > > > > > > >>>> files.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>> 2015-10-21 13:39 GMT+08:00 Konstantin Boudnik <
> > > > [email protected]>:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 09:00PM, Andrew Purtell wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Thanks Evans.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Cos: We do have the option to make new point releases
> > and
> > > > > > > > convenience
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> repos
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>> from older code if someone asks, but I suspect there
> > > > won't be
> > > > > > such
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> demand.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> True, we can. There's already a JIRA about the absence
> > of
> > > > 0.6 -
> > > > > > > > that's
> > > > > > > > > >>>> why
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> I
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> brought up this point.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> Cos
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2015, at 5:25 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <
> > > > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Another part here is that _all_ our historical
> > releases
> > > > are
> > > > > > gone
> > > > > > > > ;(
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> It might be not a huge issue as we clearly encourage
> > our
> > > > > > users to
> > > > > > > > > >>>> stay
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> on the
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> later stuff, but still it's a blow to the project.
> > One of
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> non-so-obvious
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> things that are very clear when looked upon in the
> > > > rear-view
> > > > > > > > mirror.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Cos
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 02:34AM, Evans Ye wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Thanks Andrew!
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> For temporarily dev/test usage, I've built packages
> > > > back on
> > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > CI
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> server:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> http://ci.bigtop.apache.org:8080/view/Releases/
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> And added some wiki for users:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/BIGTOP/How+to+install+Bigtop+1.0.0+with+Bigtop+Provisioner
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> I think this is enough, if it won't take too long
> > to get
> > > > > > bigtop
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> bucket back
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> online.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> OTOH, BIGTOP-2092 <
> > > > > > > > > >>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/BIGTOP-2092>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> reveals
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> that all the historical release artifacts are not
> > > > available
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > well.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> My thought is to just provide 1.0 release artifacts.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Cos,
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> right now I haven't used up the resource provided by
> > > > Tom for
> > > > > > > > CI. If
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> needed
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> I think we can re-negotiate with Tom for
> > rearrangement
> > > > to
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > >>>> S3
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> resources.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Anyhow, if you need help, just ping me.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> 2015-10-21 0:22 GMT+08:00 Andrew Purtell <
> > > > > > [email protected]>:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> FWIW, I was able to create the following buckets
> > under
> > > > my
> > > > > > > > account:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> bigtop-repo
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> bigtop-repos
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> If you want to go with one of these, even if only
> > > > > > temporarily,
> > > > > > > > let
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> me know
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> and I'll send the PMC access credentials of an IAM
> > user
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > full
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> perms
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> over these buckets.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Sean Mackrory <
> > > > > > > > > >>>> [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sean, could you figure out how this can be done?
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sure. Although if the bucket ceased to exist when
> > the
> > > > > > account
> > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> terminated, the name should have been free again
> > with
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > couple of
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> hours.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> So
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> either the bucket has NOT ceased to exist, or
> > someone
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> Cloudera
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> now has the bucket name.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I'll find out which...
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Konstantin
> > Boudnik <
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> [email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 03:30PM, Evans Ye wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Guys I've a bad news.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm guessing that our official released 1.0
> > repos
> > > > on S3
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> tied
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> with
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Cloudera's credentials, which is why we no
> > longer
> > > > have
> > > > > > S3
> > > > > > > > repos
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> available
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for users to consume now(I've tried centos6 and
> > > > > > debian8).
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> That's really bad in user experience. :(
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Cos,
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> * Could you please confirm where we put 1.0
> > repos
> > > > on?
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> * If my guess is right, do you still have
> > copies of
> > > > > > signed
> > > > > > > > repos
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> at
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> local
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for restore?
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I do have the copy of the repos, so it should be
> > an
> > > > easy
> > > > > > > > exercise
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> to
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> restore
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> them to the new location.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> * I don't have knowledge of how our current S3
> > > > > > resources are
> > > > > > > > > >>>> being
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> managed.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> And we don't have S3 resources available from
> > Tom's
> > > > > > team,
> > > > > > > > hence
> > > > > > > > > >>>> I
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> think
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> we
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> need to plan for this now.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Evans
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 10:53AM, Andrew Purtell
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Since the binary convenience artifacts are not
> > an
> > > > > > official
> > > > > > > > > >>>> release
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> artifact,
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> only the source tarball is, then any of us can
> > feel
> > > > > > free to
> > > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> official
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> 1.0 release tarball to generate a new set of
> > > > packages,
> > > > > > store
> > > > > > > > > >>>> them
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> at
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> new
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> locations, and update pointers to that location.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The new location *could* be Apache dist. Other
> > > > projects
> > > > > > host
> > > > > > > > > >>>> their
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> convenience artifacts there. We need to
> > consider the
> > > > > > impact
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure costs. I don't think there would
> > be
> > > > any
> > > > > > > > > >>>> significant
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> impact.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> We could mail infrastructure to find out if they
> > > > have
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > >>>> concerns
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> given
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> space requirement if you prefer this option.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> We have discussed it with INFRA in the early
> > days of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > project.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> And
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> precisely the cost impact was the reason we have
> > > > kept it
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> elsewhere. We
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> are
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> talking about ~0.7GB/repo x 5 platforms (at
> > least) x
> > > > > > number
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> Apache
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> mirrors
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> - it's pretty huge, really.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Bintray is another option. I don't know anything
> > > > about
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I also looked at creating a S3 bucket for Bigtop
> > > > using
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> account. I
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> have a
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> feeling monthly transfer charges will not be a
> > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > However
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 'bigtop'
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> bucket is taken. Perhaps we could talk to Tom
> > about
> > > > > > getting
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> ownership
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> transferred if you prefer this option.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> We need to ask Cloudera's infra team to transfer
> > it
> > > > to
> > > > > > us.
> > > > > > > > Sean,
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> could
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> you
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> figure out how this can be done?
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Cos
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 18, 2015, at 4:42 AM, Olaf Flebbe <
> > > > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Cos,
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it correct that we should not put our
> > release
> > > > > > artifacts
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> apache
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> dist,
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> since Apache is about code not binaries?
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Can we use something like bintray.org ? Looks
> > > > like the
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> functionality
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> we need: RPM and DEB repo, and does have an API.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Olaf
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 18.10.2015 um 09:30 schrieb Evans Ye <
> > > > > > > > [email protected]>:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guys I've a bad news.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm guessing that our official released 1.0
> > repos
> > > > on
> > > > > > S3
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > >>>> also
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> tied
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> with
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cloudera's credentials, which is why we no
> > longer
> > > > > > have S3
> > > > > > > > > >>>> repos
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> available
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for users to consume now(I've tried centos6
> > and
> > > > > > debian8).
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's really bad in user experience. :(
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cos,
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Could you please confirm where we put 1.0
> > repos
> > > > on?
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * If my guess is right, do you still have
> > copies
> > > > of
> > > > > > signed
> > > > > > > > > >>>> repos
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> at
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> local
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for restore?
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * I don't have knowledge of how our current S3
> > > > > > resources
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> being
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> managed.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And we don't have S3 resources available from
> > > > Tom's
> > > > > > team,
> > > > > > > > > >>>> hence
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> I
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> think we
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to plan for this now.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evans
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> --
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> - Andy
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by
> > hitting
> > > > > > back. -
> > > > > > > > Piet
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> Hein
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> (via Tom White)
> > > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >    - Andy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. -
> > Piet
> > > > Hein
> > > > > > > (via Tom White)
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > >    - Andy
> > >
> > > Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
> > > (via Tom White)
> >

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