> I'm not concerned today, no, just musing and pointing out that there are easy ways to improve progress if we find there's an impediment. I don't think it necessarily indicates bad intent to use voting rules as formulated, either, for the record.
Yeah, I didn't think you were serious about it being a problem, just wanted to check. I'm changing my vote to a -1, in favor of a simple majority as the low watermark in vote participation (not approval). On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:56 AM Benedict Elliott Smith <bened...@apache.org> wrote: > I'm not concerned today, no, just musing and pointing out that there are > easy ways to improve progress if we find there's an impediment. I don't > think it necessarily indicates bad intent to use voting rules as > formulated, either, for the record. > > I do think redefining the roll call low watermark would be a good thing to > do though. It was a mistake to bring this to a vote without discussing > it. Sorry for my part in forgetting the comment hadn't been responded to, > and also for the initial issue with formulation - it stemmed from poorly > specifying the use of super-majority in the private@ indicative votes > (which didn't disambiguate between the two success metrics), and avoiding > disincentives to voting (requiring only a quorum of voters, rather than a > quorum of positive voters, encourages abstention until the quorum is > reached). The intention was always to get clarity from the community > before a formal vote. > > I don't personally mind if we do that as a modification once this vote > passes, or if we scrub the vote and try again. > > > On 17/06/2020, 17:35, "Jon Haddad" <j...@jonhaddad.com> wrote: > > > On the document I raised this as an issue, and proposed lowering the > "low watermark" to a simple majority of the electorate - since if you > have > both a simple majority of the "active electorate", and a > super-majority of > all voters, I think you can consider that a strong consensus. > > Agree here. I think a simple majority of the roll call + a super > majority > of votes sounds far more reasonable. > > > However it's worth noting that the active electorate is likely to > undercount, since some people won't nominate themselves in the roll > call, > but will still vote. So it might not in practice be a problem. In > fact it > can be gamed by people who want to pass a motion that fails to reach > the > low watermark all collaborating to not count their vote at the roll > call. > The only real advantage of the roll call is that it's simple to > administer. > > Is this something you're concerned about, or just musing over? > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:21 AM Benedict Elliott Smith < > bened...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > Sorry, I've been busy so not paid as close attention as I would like > after > > initial contributions to the formulation. On the document I raised > this as > > an issue, and proposed lowering the "low watermark" to a simple > majority of > > the electorate - since if you have both a simple majority of the > "active > > electorate", and a super-majority of all voters, I think you can > consider > > that a strong consensus. > > > > However it's worth noting that the active electorate is likely to > > undercount, since some people won't nominate themselves in the roll > call, > > but will still vote. So it might not in practice be a problem. In > fact it > > can be gamed by people who want to pass a motion that fails to reach > the > > low watermark all collaborating to not count their vote at the roll > call. > > The only real advantage of the roll call is that it's simple to > administer. > > > > On 17/06/2020, 17:12, "Jon Haddad" <j...@jonhaddad.com> wrote: > > > > Looking at the doc again, I'm a bit concerned about this: > > > > > PMC roll call will be taken every 6 months. This is an email > to dev@ > > w/the simple question to pmc members of “are you active on the > project > > and > > plan to participate in voting over the next 6 months?”. This is > > strictly an > > exercise to get quorum count and in no way restricts ability to > > participate > > during this time window. A super-majority of this count becomes > the > > low-watermark for votes in favour necessary to pass a motion, > with new > > PMC > > members added to the calculation. > > > > I imagine we'll see a lot of participation from folks in roll > call, and > > less when it comes to votes. It's very easy to say we'll do > something, > > it's another to follow through. A glance at any active community > > member's > > review board (including my own) will confirm that. > > > > Just to provide a quick example with some rough numbers - it > doesn't > > seem > > unreasonable to me that we'll get a roll call of 15-20 votes. > On the > > low > > end of that, we'd need 10 votes to pass anything and on the high > end, > > 14. > > On the high end a vote with 13 +1 and one -1 would fail. > > > > Just to be clear, I am 100% in favor of increased participation > and a > > higher bar on voting, but I'd like to ensure we don't set the > bar so > > high > > we can't get anything done. > > > > Anyone else share this sentiment? > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 8:37 AM David Capwell > > <dcapw...@apple.com.invalid> > > wrote: > > > > > +1 nb > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 2020, at 7:27 AM, Andrés de la Peña < > > a.penya.gar...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > +1 nb > > > > > > > >> On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 15:06, Sylvain Lebresne < > > lebre...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> +1 (binding) > > > >> -- > > > >> Sylvain > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 1:58 PM Benjamin Lerer < > > > >> benjamin.le...@datastax.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> +1 (binding) > > > >>> > > > >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:49 PM Marcus Eriksson < > > marc...@apache.org> > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> +1 > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 17 June 2020 at 12:40:38, Sam Tunnicliffe ( > s...@beobal.com) > > wrote: > > > >>>>> +1 (binding) > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> On 17 Jun 2020, at 09:11, Jorge Bay Gondra wrote: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> +1 nb > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 7:41 AM Mick Semb Wever wrote: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> +1 (binding) > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 18:19, Joshua McKenzie > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Added unratified draft to the wiki here: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/Apache+Cassandra+Project+Governance > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> I propose the following: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> 1. We leave the vote open for 1 week (close at end of > day > > > >> 6/23/20) > > > >>>>>>>> unless there's a lot of feedback on the wiki we > didn't get > > on > > > >> gdoc > > > >>>>>>>> 2. pmc votes are considered binding > > > >>>>>>>> 3. committer and community votes are considered > advisory / > > > >>>> non-binding > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Any objections / revisions to the above? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Thanks! > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> ~Josh > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org > > > >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org > > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@cassandra.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@cassandra.apache.org > >
