Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to the official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the bylaws is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his assumption? Or does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and he is right?
Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.sm...@gmail.com> wrote: > Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a > part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where? > > Best regards, > > > Pierre Smits > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > Based Manufacturing, Professional > Services and Retail & Trade > http://www.orrtiz.com > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < > ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote: > >> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply. >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ________________________________ >> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com> >> Sent: 7/4/2015 3:35 PM >> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> >> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off >> of Better specifying....) >> >> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at >> least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to >> establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a >> project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that >> the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that >> condition is met. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Pierre Smits >> >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >> Based Manufacturing, Professional >> Services and Retail & Trade >> http://www.orrtiz.com >> >> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < >> ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote: >> >> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the >> Apache >> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the >> > spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project. >> > >> > Sent from my Windows Phone >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com> >> > Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM >> > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> >> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of >> > Better specifying....) >> > >> > Off list? >> > >> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't >> > distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument. >> > >> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the >> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over >> Code >> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase? >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Pierre >> > >> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < >> > ross.gard...@microsoft.com >> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ross.gard...@microsoft.com');>> het >> volgende >> > geschreven: >> > >> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was >> not >> > > kind here. >> > > >> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again: >> > > >> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork >> (or >> > > the electronic equivalent). >> > > >> > > Sent from my Windows Phone >> > > ________________________________ >> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com> >> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM >> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> >> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF >> (spin-off >> > > of Better specifying....) >> > > >> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport >> (our >> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most >> > situations >> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the >> default >> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write >> > code >> > > instead. >> > > >> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit >> of >> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC >> (and >> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern. >> > > >> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation >> is >> > > there. E.g. >> > > >> > >> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html >> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html >> > > >> > > Ross >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Sent from my Windows Phone >> > > ________________________________ >> > > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com> >> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM >> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> >> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off >> of >> > > Better specifying....) >> > > >> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office >> > policing >> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in >> their >> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to >> > > incorporate >> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement, >> > > >> >> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make >> sure >> > > that >> > > > exactly this happened. >> > > >> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for >> > this >> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling >> > > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing >> > details >> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct. >> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at >> the >> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings >> graduating >> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or >> > not. >> > > >> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of >> the >> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement. >> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that >> IPMC >> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that >> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they >> > > consider it optional. >> > > >> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till >> May >> > is >> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a >> TLP) >> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now >> those >> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, >> > Apache >> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws. >> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set >> of >> > > bylaws at all by the board. >> > > >> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has >> led to >> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it >> harder >> > to >> > > tell a unified story to the outside world... >> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being >> under >> > the >> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the >> > > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the >> contributors >> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour >> a >> > > few.... >> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning >> defining >> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the >> > > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis >> > > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair). >> > > >> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the >> > > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board >> keep >> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a >> > project's >> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way? >> > > >> > > Best regards, >> > > >> > > Pierre Smits >> > > >> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud- >> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional >> > > Services and Retail & Trade >> > > http://www.orrtiz.com >> > > >> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz < >> > > bdelacre...@apache.org >> > > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Hi, >> > > > >> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs >> of >> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below. >> > > > >> > > > -Bertrand >> > > > >> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz >> > > > <bdelacre...@apache.org> wrote: >> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** >> > > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache >> > > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing >> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other >> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct >> > which >> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in >> the >> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy. >> > > > > >> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who >> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or >> > claims >> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related >> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role. >> > > > > >> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here >> on) >> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Pierre Smits >> > >> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >> > Services & Solutions for Cloud- >> > Based Manufacturing, Professional >> > Services and Retail & Trade >> > http://www.orrtiz.com >> > >> > >
