On Sunday, July 5, 2015, Pierre Smits <pierre.sm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to the > official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the bylaws > is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his assumption? Or > does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and he is right? I did not mean that a oodling should create its own bylaws, but simply use default and follow the ASF bylaws. Bylaws in projects should be (and are) an exception. rgds jan i > > Best regards, > > Pierre Smits > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > Based Manufacturing, Professional > Services and Retail & Trade > http://www.orrtiz.com > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.sm...@gmail.com > <javascript:;>> wrote: > > > Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a > > part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where? > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Pierre Smits > > > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > > Based Manufacturing, Professional > > Services and Retail & Trade > > http://www.orrtiz.com > > > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < > > ross.gard...@microsoft.com <javascript:;>> wrote: > > > >> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply. > >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com <javascript:;>> > >> Sent: 7/4/2015 3:35 PM > >> To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto: > dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>> > >> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF > (spin-off > >> of Better specifying....) > >> > >> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at > >> least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to > >> establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a > >> project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that > >> the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that > >> condition is met. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Pierre Smits > >> > >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > >> Services & Solutions for Cloud- > >> Based Manufacturing, Professional > >> Services and Retail & Trade > >> http://www.orrtiz.com > >> > >> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < > >> ross.gard...@microsoft.com <javascript:;>> wrote: > >> > >> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the > >> Apache > >> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the > >> > spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project. > >> > > >> > Sent from my Windows Phone > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com <javascript:;>> > >> > Sent: 7/4/2015 3:16 PM > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto: > dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>> > >> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off > of > >> > Better specifying....) > >> > > >> > Off list? > >> > > >> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't > >> > distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument. > >> > > >> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the > >> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over > >> Code > >> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase? > >> > > >> > Best regards, > >> > > >> > Pierre > >> > > >> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < > >> > ross.gard...@microsoft.com <javascript:;> > >> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ross.gard...@microsoft.com > <javascript:;>');>> het > >> volgende > >> > geschreven: > >> > > >> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was > >> not > >> > > kind here. > >> > > > >> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again: > >> > > > >> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing > paperwork > >> (or > >> > > the electronic equivalent). > >> > > > >> > > Sent from my Windows Phone > >> > > ________________________________ > >> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com > <javascript:;>> > >> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 10:08 AM > >> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto: > dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>> > >> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF > >> (spin-off > >> > > of Better specifying....) > >> > > > >> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport > >> (our > >> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most > >> > situations > >> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the > >> default > >> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to > write > >> > code > >> > > instead. > >> > > > >> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit > >> of > >> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC > >> (and > >> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern. > >> > > > >> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the > documentation > >> is > >> > > there. E.g. > >> > > > >> > > >> > http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html > >> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html > >> > > > >> > > Ross > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Sent from my Windows Phone > >> > > ________________________________ > >> > > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com <javascript:;>> > >> > > Sent: 7/4/2015 9:34 AM > >> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto: > dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>> > >> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF > (spin-off > >> of > >> > > Better specifying....) > >> > > > >> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office > >> > policing > >> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in > >> their > >> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to > >> > > incorporate > >> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement, > >> > > >> > >> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make > >> sure > >> > > that > >> > > > exactly this happened. > >> > > > >> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board > for > >> > this > >> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA > podling > >> > > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing > >> > details > >> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct. > >> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also > at > >> the > >> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings > >> graduating > >> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws > or > >> > not. > >> > > > >> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct > of > >> the > >> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement. > >> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that > >> IPMC > >> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that > >> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they > >> > > consider it optional. > >> > > > >> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till > >> May > >> > is > >> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a > >> TLP) > >> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now > >> those > >> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, > >> > Apache > >> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws. > >> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set > >> of > >> > > bylaws at all by the board. > >> > > > >> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has > >> led to > >> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it > >> harder > >> > to > >> > > tell a unified story to the outside world... > >> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being > >> under > >> > the > >> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and > the > >> > > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the > >> contributors > >> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to > favour > >> a > >> > > few.... > >> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning > >> defining > >> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how > the > >> > > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis > >> > > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair). > >> > > > >> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the > >> > > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board > >> keep > >> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a > >> > project's > >> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way? > >> > > > >> > > Best regards, > >> > > > >> > > Pierre Smits > >> > > > >> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > >> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > >> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional > >> > > Services and Retail & Trade > >> > > http://www.orrtiz.com > >> > > > >> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz < > >> > > bdelacre...@apache.org <javascript:;> > >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Hi, > >> > > > > >> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few > paragraphs > >> of > >> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below. > >> > > > > >> > > > -Bertrand > >> > > > > >> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz > >> > > > <bdelacre...@apache.org <javascript:;>> wrote: > >> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** > >> > > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache > >> > > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private > mailing > >> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other > >> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct > >> > which > >> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified > in > >> the > >> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who > >> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or > >> > claims > >> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related > >> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any > role. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here > >> on) > >> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Pierre Smits > >> > > >> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > >> > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > >> > Based Manufacturing, Professional > >> > Services and Retail & Trade > >> > http://www.orrtiz.com > >> > > >> > > > > > -- Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.
