+1 to chair nomination for Shaz. He will do a great job. Let’s try and keep this on topic and move the Apache Way discussion to a separate thread. -James Jong
On Apr 23, 2014, at 3:09 AM, Joe Bowser <bows...@gmail.com> wrote: > I think I need to go into why I don't like "The Apache Way" from the > view of the people that I actually care about, our users. The people > who talk to me at conventions, and wonder why things are so slow, > broken and stupid. > > 1. All communication on the e-mail list > > We've been breaking this one with Google Hangouts. From my > understanding we can't make any decision on the Google Hangout because > that is against the Apache Way and some committer can't make the > hangout in theory. The reality is that we have zero European > contributors and we manage to accomodate Tommy though magic of him > either being able to not sleep, or us picking a weird ass time that > screws over the East Coast. Before we did hangouts, connect and > conference calls on a more regular basis and it was easier for us to > actually work on shit together instead of being in weird silos. > > 2. Bureaucracy > Community > Code > > We've had numerous users complain about how we had to leave GitHub, > how hard it is to submit an issue, about API changes because of > Trademark Issues, and other issues pertaining to Apache Cordova > updates. We've had people criticize our fix for the non-voting and > people criticize the voting. We've basically had people criticize > everything that we've done to abide by the Apache Way because it makes > no sense. If Community > Code actually meant something, we'd listen > to all the users we had before we donated PhoneGap to Apache and > created Cordova. Just beacuse we're not httpd or OpenOffice doesn't > mean we don't have an active and passionate userbase that frankly > loves us and is passionate about this project far more than we ever > deserve. We should do better to listen to them and push back against > bureaucracy that doesn't make sense. It's not us being special > snowflakes, it's us fighting for the user! > > 3. Being bad at working with people and projects isn't funny > > I really didn't find the SVN abandoning SVN and adopting Git funny > (https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7524) because I was privy > to all the communications sent during the whole > not-voting-for-releases battle. Everything is a big fight with > Apache, especially with people such as Jim. The first e-mail I > remember receiving from Jim was the cced one basically telling us to > go pound sand, which is my first impression of how the Apache board > works. Being assholes in private or public isn't funny, it's sad and > pathetic. However, it appears to be the Apache Way, which is why I do > it on this list, albeit not nearly as hard as people do it on most of > the lists that I've seen. > > I know that people don't care what anyone thinks of them, but that's a > bad attitude when you're trying to attract contributors, and when > you're trying to attract projects to the foundation. Whether it's > hangover posts from the Git war, or other posts bemoaning the Apache > culture of RTFM when it comes to its arcane policies, this is actively > discouraging people from being involved with Apache at all, including > Apache Cordova. I have some friends who were formerly with Apache, or > associated with the ASF that aren't because of it's toxic culture, and > it pisses me off that aspects of it continue, so yeah, I'm pretty > toxic to things that I see as toxic. I'm not going to air all the > dirty laundry here. > > Now, those are probably my main three complaints. I already know that > there's going to be some defence about not caring what other people > think and popularity contests, and I don't view that as productive. > I'm not asking everyone to sing kumbaya, but it would be nice if the > ASF, and those trying to curry favour with the ASF, would stop > purposely trying to alienate the people who helped create this project > in the first place. If you forwarded me an e-mail, even > unintentionally where you were abusive to myself or other people who > created this thing, I'll definitely remember that. > > Now, I think I derailed this thread enough with my personal opinion. > I think Shaz should be our chair because I think he'll do a good job > at it. > > Joe > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote: >> Coming from Joe's perspective this is year 6 of the source code now known >> as Cordova. Jim and others have as much merit in our world as we clearly do >> in theirs. It is not uncalled for and very obvious where the sentiment >> comes from. Members of the board care deeply about Apache and we care >> deeply about Cordova. Finding a respectful and productive balance would be >> nice though clearly this is not mandatory. >> >> Anyhow, the very concept of PMC was always intended to be no different than >> committer in Cordova. This was understood and acknowledged during >> incubation. Despite the language of meritocracy there's a hierarchical >> pyramid at Apache (Contributor->Committer->PMC->Member) and we very >> deliberately chose to incorporate Committer and PMC Member at the same >> time. >> >> If you are good enough to land a patch you are good enough to be involved >> in the releasing of it. We have always intended to continue with a flat >> structure though given recent board "help" with releasing I could see this >> changing too. >> >> Simply put, ideally there is zero barrier to contribute and ship. Anything >> that gets in the way of contribution and releasing is inviting higher >> chance of project failure. Some of the Apache rules are build up of old >> policy that has become meaningless ceremony. We need to get better at >> acknowledging that for what it is and fixing Apache. (Another example would >> be eradicating the harmful concepts in meritocracy.) >> >> But back at Jim's comment: yes I very much do believe Shaz lives up the >> conveniently vague term "The Apache Way" as I understand it [1] but please >> do check the facts. >> >> [1] http://brian.io/slides/codemania-2014/#/16 >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew Grieve <agri...@chromium.org> wrote: >> >>> Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you >>> hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache >>> project? >>> >>> I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it >>> means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help >>> us out. >>> Jim - thank you. >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <bows...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> wrote: >>>>> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat >>>>> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for >>>>> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by, >>>>> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the >>>>> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and >>>>> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3) >>>>> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so. >>>>> >>>> >>>> So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board >>>> trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol? While I >>>> believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache >>>> Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache >>>> Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into >>>> irrelevancy. I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when >>>> you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it. That >>>> being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen >>>> what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a >>>> bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other >>>> personally. This response to your first e-mail on this list should >>>> not come as any surprise. >>>> >>>> The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic >>>> and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other >>>> Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in >>>>> with the nomination? >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for the >>>>>> Cordova PMC. >>>>>> >>>>>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and book >>>>>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more >>> formal >>>>>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight >>>>>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves >>> sending an >>>>>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts on >>>>>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some day >>>>>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source. >>>>>> >>>>>> In evaluation of my current workload these additional book keeping >>>>>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that is >>> not >>>>>> fair to Cordova. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to >>> nominate >>>>>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project >>> since >>>>>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts >>>>>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to work >>> on >>>>>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was. >>>>>> >>>>>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute >>> more >>>>>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote if >>> there >>>>>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties >>> on. >>>>>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next week. >>>>> >>>
