+1 to what Aljoscha and Timo are proposing.
I would lean towards eliminating Google Docs altogether.
I think they served a purpose when discussions were among 3 to 4
people but with the current size of the community and the amount of
participants per discussion they become difficult to follow.
Best,
Kostas
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:36 PM Timo Walther <twal...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> +1 to what Aljoscha said.
>
> The past has shown that discussions in Google docs do not reach all
> interested parties and the tracability of design decisions becomes
> difficult. Google services are also partially inaccessible in certain
> parts of world.
>
> We should actually do the opposite and not allow Google docs as FLIPs
> anymore. Commenting should be disabled by default.
>
> Regards,
> Timo
>
>
>
> On 18.02.20 15:20, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > thanks for starting this discussion!
> >
> > However, I have a somewhat opposing opinion to this: we should disallow
> > using Google Docs for FLIPs and FLIP discussions and follow the already
> > established process more strictly.
> >
> > My reasons for this are:
> > - discussions on the Google Doc are not reflected in Apache
> > infrastructure
> > - discussions on Google Docs are non-linear and hard to follow
> > - when discussions on Google Docs are resolved these discussions are
> > not visible/re-readable anymore (I know there's history, but meh)
> > - if discussion is kept purely to the ML this is easily observable for
> > any interested parties and it's there if somewhat want's to recheck the
> > discussion in the future
> > - going from Google Doc to Wiki is an extra step that seems
> > unnecessary to me (but that's just personal opinion, I mean, I don't
> > have to do the extra work here...)
> >
> > Best,
> > Aljoscha
> >
> > On 18.02.20 09:02, Hequn Cheng wrote:
> >> Hi everyone,
> >>
> >> Currently, when we create a FLIP we follow the FLIP process in the Flink
> >> Improvement Proposals wiki[1]. The process mainly includes the following
> >> steps:
> >> 1. Create a FLIP wiki page.
> >> 2. Raise the discussion on the mailing list.
> >> 3. Once the proposal is finalized, call a vote to have the proposal
> >> adopted.
> >> There is also a discussion[2] on the FLIP process which may be helpful
> >> for
> >> you.
> >>
> >> As it is not allowed commented on the wiki, we usually have a google doc
> >> for the discussion at step 2 and whenever there is a change we need to
> >> pick
> >> it to the wiki page. This makes things somehow redundant. To solve
> >> this, we
> >> can rearrange the step a little bit and avoid the pick:
> >> 1. Raise the discussion on the mailing list. The subject of the thread is
> >> of the format [DISCUSS][FLIP] {your FLIP heading}. Also, the design doc
> >> should follow the FLIP-Template strictly. (The [FLIP] tag is used to
> >> inform
> >> people that it is a FLIP discussion and more attention should be paid.)
> >> 2. Create a FLIP wiki page once we reached an agreement on the
> >> discussion.
> >> We can simply copy the google doc into the FLIP wiki page.
> >> 3. Once the proposal is finalized, call a vote to have the proposal
> >> adopted. It should be noted that we should always vote on a FLIP wiki
> >> page
> >> instead of a google doc. The wiki page is the final version of the google
> >> doc.
> >>
> >> This can bring some benefits:
> >> 1. Make the discussion more effective as we force people to write and
> >> discuss on a google doc that follows the FLIP template which
> >> includes necessary information such as Motivation, Interfaces, Proposed
> >> changes, etc.
> >> 2. Avoid redundant pick from google doc to Flink wiki page. Once we
> >> reached
> >> an agreement on the discussion, we can simply copy the google doc into
> >> the
> >> FLIP wiki page.
> >> 3. As adopted FLIP should mostly be "immutable", we can even make the
> >> wiki
> >> page PMC or committer editable since it just needs a simple copy from the
> >> google doc.
> >>
> >> Looking forward to your feedback!
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Hequn
> >>
> >> [1]
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/Flink+Improvement+Proposals
> >>
> >> [2]
> >> http://apache-flink-mailing-list-archive.1008284.n3.nabble.com/DISCUSS-META-FLIP-Sticking-or-not-to-a-strict-FLIP-voting-process-td29978.html#a29988
> >>
> >>
>
