Hi all, thanks for launching this discussion.
About eliminating Google Docs. I agree with Zhijiang, I share my concern
about it.
If the FLIP Driver is a Flink newer or the FLIP is very big and
complicated. His/Her design maybe need change many many things, in this
situation, Google doc is good to be reviewed by community. If all
discussions are in ML, It's going to be very messy.
So I think can keep this principle:
- Small issues can be discussed on Google doc.
- Big issues, or fundamental design issues, or API issues, are discussed in
ML.
Best,
Jingsong Lee
On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 1:22 AM Zhijiang <wangzhijiang...@aliyun.com.invalid>
wrote:
> Thanks for launching this discussion and also agree with the opinions of
> Kostas, Timo and Aljoscha.
>
> The proposed reasons for eliminating google doc are very reasonable,
> especially the access limitation for some people in China.
>
> Besides that, another conservative option is to make google doc as an
> optional procedure, not a must procedure in practice, and
> the ML discussion is still the formal must procedure to follow firstly.
> And we can also kindly list these specific considerations/reasons
> for google doc concerns as said below in the guideline doc.
>
> To do so, we still retain this option for some people who prefer to google
> doc or willing to provide it in some corner cases.
> Of course I am also happy to eliminate google doc completely.
>
> Best,
> Zhijiang
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> From:Kostas Kloudas <kklou...@gmail.com>
> Send Time:2020 Feb. 18 (Tue.) 23:03
> To:dev <dev@flink.apache.org>
> Subject:Re: [DISCUSS] Improvements on FLIP Process
>
> +1 to what Aljoscha and Timo are proposing.
>
> I would lean towards eliminating Google Docs altogether.
> I think they served a purpose when discussions were among 3 to 4
> people but with the current size of the community and the amount of
> participants per discussion they become difficult to follow.
>
> Best,
> Kostas
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:36 PM Timo Walther <twal...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > +1 to what Aljoscha said.
> >
> > The past has shown that discussions in Google docs do not reach all
> > interested parties and the tracability of design decisions becomes
> > difficult. Google services are also partially inaccessible in certain
> > parts of world.
> >
> > We should actually do the opposite and not allow Google docs as FLIPs
> > anymore. Commenting should be disabled by default.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Timo
> >
> >
> >
> > On 18.02.20 15:20, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > thanks for starting this discussion!
> > >
> > > However, I have a somewhat opposing opinion to this: we should disallow
> > > using Google Docs for FLIPs and FLIP discussions and follow the already
> > > established process more strictly.
> > >
> > > My reasons for this are:
> > > - discussions on the Google Doc are not reflected in Apache
> > > infrastructure
> > > - discussions on Google Docs are non-linear and hard to follow
> > > - when discussions on Google Docs are resolved these discussions are
> > > not visible/re-readable anymore (I know there's history, but meh)
> > > - if discussion is kept purely to the ML this is easily observable
> for
> > > any interested parties and it's there if somewhat want's to recheck the
> > > discussion in the future
> > > - going from Google Doc to Wiki is an extra step that seems
> > > unnecessary to me (but that's just personal opinion, I mean, I don't
> > > have to do the extra work here...)
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Aljoscha
> > >
> > > On 18.02.20 09:02, Hequn Cheng wrote:
> > >> Hi everyone,
> > >>
> > >> Currently, when we create a FLIP we follow the FLIP process in the
> Flink
> > >> Improvement Proposals wiki[1]. The process mainly includes the
> following
> > >> steps:
> > >> 1. Create a FLIP wiki page.
> > >> 2. Raise the discussion on the mailing list.
> > >> 3. Once the proposal is finalized, call a vote to have the proposal
> > >> adopted.
> > >> There is also a discussion[2] on the FLIP process which may be helpful
> > >> for
> > >> you.
> > >>
> > >> As it is not allowed commented on the wiki, we usually have a google
> doc
> > >> for the discussion at step 2 and whenever there is a change we need to
> > >> pick
> > >> it to the wiki page. This makes things somehow redundant. To solve
> > >> this, we
> > >> can rearrange the step a little bit and avoid the pick:
> > >> 1. Raise the discussion on the mailing list. The subject of the
> thread is
> > >> of the format [DISCUSS][FLIP] {your FLIP heading}. Also, the design
> doc
> > >> should follow the FLIP-Template strictly. (The [FLIP] tag is used to
> > >> inform
> > >> people that it is a FLIP discussion and more attention should be
> paid.)
> > >> 2. Create a FLIP wiki page once we reached an agreement on the
> > >> discussion.
> > >> We can simply copy the google doc into the FLIP wiki page.
> > >> 3. Once the proposal is finalized, call a vote to have the proposal
> > >> adopted. It should be noted that we should always vote on a FLIP wiki
> > >> page
> > >> instead of a google doc. The wiki page is the final version of the
> google
> > >> doc.
> > >>
> > >> This can bring some benefits:
> > >> 1. Make the discussion more effective as we force people to write and
> > >> discuss on a google doc that follows the FLIP template which
> > >> includes necessary information such as Motivation, Interfaces,
> Proposed
> > >> changes, etc.
> > >> 2. Avoid redundant pick from google doc to Flink wiki page. Once we
> > >> reached
> > >> an agreement on the discussion, we can simply copy the google doc into
> > >> the
> > >> FLIP wiki page.
> > >> 3. As adopted FLIP should mostly be "immutable", we can even make the
> > >> wiki
> > >> page PMC or committer editable since it just needs a simple copy from
> the
> > >> google doc.
> > >>
> > >> Looking forward to your feedback!
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Hequn
> > >>
> > >> [1]
> > >>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/Flink+Improvement+Proposals
> > >>
> > >> [2]
> > >>
> http://apache-flink-mailing-list-archive.1008284.n3.nabble.com/DISCUSS-META-FLIP-Sticking-or-not-to-a-strict-FLIP-voting-process-td29978.html#a29988
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>
>
--
Best, Jingsong Lee
