These are my assumptions based on your last message: - `By kie-tools` you meant KIE Sandbox. - `By kie-services` you meant Extended Services.
With those assumptions, to your first two points: 1. Yes, that's what users do today with the native binaries for Extended Services. 2. Not sure what you mean by "if runtime check is required", but we can ignore this part I guess. My proposal is that users run a Docker image locally instead of the native binaries for Extended Services. Your counter-proposal is that users run a normal JAR instead of the native binaries for Extended Services. I wouldn't have a problem with your suggestion (although I still think for KIE Sandbox users, managing Docker installation is easier then managing a JRE installation, but we can disagree in that part, since it's a personal thing I guess), wasn't it for the fact that it requires more work to adapt the codebase and release pipelines to produce a new artifact, whereas the Docker image is already available and ready to use for the `main`, `10.0.0` and `10.1.0` streams. Also, it's not clear to me how you would pack and distribute it. Would it be a JAR that users download directly then `java -jar` it to execute? Regards, Tiago Bento On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 9:46 AM Gabriele Cardosi <gabriele.card...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Tiago, > I may misunderstand something, but what I get is that you suggested using > the docker image as "on-the-fly" backend for kie-tools, i.e. > 1. user fire kie-services locally > 2. if runtime check is required, they download the docker image (or - > anyway, they start the docker image in their local docker environment) that > contains the jit executor. > > If this is your proposal, to avoid the native image, then my > counter-proposal is to > 1. build jit-executor as normal jar > 2. ask users to install JRE > 3. download and execute the jit-executor jar as normal java application > > because, IMO, jar artifacts, and JRE installation, are easier (or - > somewhat - more predictable) to manage than docker environments. > > It may be that I completely misunderstand something in all this thread, in > which case I apologize and please correct me if some of my assumptions are > wrong. > > Cheers > > Gabriele > > > > Il giorno gio 19 giu 2025 alle ore 15:15 Tiago Bento <tiagobe...@apache.org> > ha scritto: > > > Gabriele, > > > > Not sure what are you suggesting to unblock the Quarkus 3.20 upgrade > > then, can you please clarify? > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 8:50 AM Gabriele Cardosi > > <gabriele.card...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > -1 on my side > > > > > > > > > @Alex > > > the point is not if we have already built artifacts or not, the real > > > problem is if we need them in this situation. > > > > > > The main point behind that "JITExecutor native" approach has always been > > to > > > avoid the users to install "tools" as in " > > > *without needing to install and/or manage Java or anyother tools > > locally*" > > > (quot.) > > > > > > Docker is a "tool", and so requiring users to install it clearly breaks > > the > > > above constraint. > > > So, instead of asking them to install Docker and rely on a sort-of > > > contrived setup, I think we should just ask them to install compatible > > JRE, > > > and that would solve the problem at its root. > > > > > > Sorry, but going the docker way (or also what I suggested) is simply > > > building unneeded workarounds around a constraint that we created and > > does > > > not exist anymore, as a matter of fact. > > > So, let's be simple and pragmatic, remove that unneeded and problematic > > > "constraint", and make things simple. > > > > > > M2C > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > Il giorno gio 19 giu 2025 alle ore 14:02 Alex Porcelli < > > porce...@apache.org> > > > ha scritto: > > > > > > > +1 for Tiago's proposal! > > > > > > > > Thank you, Tiago, for the clarification and the clear proposal. > > > > > > > > > > > > @Gabriele, you have a point, but I also believe the goal is to avoid > > > > creating new artifacts and reuse existing ones as much as possible. > > > > With that in mind, reusing containers makes a lot of sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 3:28 AM Gabriele Cardosi > > > > <gabriele.card...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > HI Tiago Bento, > > > > > glad to see that finally we get to this topic 😀. > > > > > While I understand the ratio behind docker images, it seems to me to > > > > > contradict the very first reason for native image, i.e. "without > > needing > > > > to > > > > > install and/or manage Java or any > > > > > other tools locally". > > > > > If we have to ask users to install the Docker environment (which is a > > > > > complex tool, IMO), then I fail to see the problem of installing a > > JRE, > > > > in > > > > > the first place. Please take in account that docker environments on > > > > > different OS (and different security restrictions) are pretty > > > > problematic. > > > > > But, pretending that it is legitimate to ask for docker setup and > > not for > > > > > JRE installation, I think a viable alternative could be the build of > > > > > embedded java executable, using jpackage/jlink tools to create a > > trimmed > > > > > down, optimized executable jre image. > > > > > I started experimenting with it some time ago, but it never became a > > > > > priority. Anyway I think it should be considered. > > > > > > > > > > Best > > > > > Gabriele > > > > > > > > > > Il giorno gio 19 giu 2025 alle ore 03:22 Tiago Bento < > > > > tiagobe...@apache.org> > > > > > ha scritto: > > > > > > > > > > > HI all, > > > > > > > > > > > > The upgrade to Quarkus 3.20 has not been fully concluded yet, as > > > > > > `kie-tools` is still pointing to its dependency repos (drools, > > > > > > optaplanner, kogito-runtimes, kogito-apps) using commits from > > > > > > 2025-05-11 (still on Quarkus 3.15). The need `kie-tools` had for > > > > > > timestamped SNAPSHOTs to be published somewhere has been lifted in > > > > > > this PR (https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/pull/3170), > > > > > > thus allowing us to have more flexibility and control over when to > > > > > > upgrade, and which commit hashes to use for each repo. It's also > > one > > > > > > less automation for us to maintain ("weekly" jobs for producing > > > > > > timestamped SNAPSHOTs on Jenkins can be deleted now, as far as I'm > > > > > > concerned.) > > > > > > > > > > > > In order for us to move to newer commits of the dependency repos to > > > > > > upgrade `kie-tools` to Quarkus 3.20 (LTS), however, we need to > > solve a > > > > > > historical problem we've been dragging along for a while now–JIT > > > > > > Executor's native builds. The whole reason we have it was to enable > > > > > > users to use KIE Sandbox with static validation and DMN Runner > > > > > > capabilities without needing to install and/or manage Java or any > > > > > > other tools locally, so we started releasing native binary > > versions of > > > > > > Extended Services (KIE Sandbox's "backend", which embeds JIT > > Executor) > > > > > > for all three major operating systems on each release. Although we > > > > > > were able to manage the complexity of building those binaries > > > > > > overtime, it wasn't without challenges and many hours spent to try > > and > > > > > > continue providing this convenient distribution of Extended > > Services. > > > > > > Important to mention is that on 10.0.0, Extended Services native > > > > > > binaries for macOS and Windows were not correctly published due to > > a > > > > > > problem in the release pipelines. > > > > > > > > > > > > With `kie-tools` moving away from timestamped SNAPSHOTs and > > building > > > > > > its dependent repos ""locally"" during its builds, compiling native > > > > > > binaries for Extended Services becomes impractical, as native > > binary > > > > > > builds take a non-negligible amount of time, and require a somewhat > > > > > > complicated local setup for it to succeed. For that reason, I > > propose > > > > > > we take the following action items: > > > > > > 1. (blocker for Quarkus 3.20) Update KIE Sandbox with instructions > > for > > > > > > users to run Extended Services as a Container image instead of > > > > > > downloading and running Extended Services' native binaries (thus > > > > > > requiring users to have a local Docker installation, as already > > > > > > suggested to users here [1]); > > > > > > 2. (blocker for Quarkus 3.20) Delete `packages/extended-services` > > on > > > > > > `kie-tools`. (which depends on native binaries of JIT Executor to > > be > > > > > > available from apache.snapshots, Maven central etc); > > > > > > 3. (cleanup) Update our release jobs not to trigger any JIT > > > > > > Executor-related jobs on GitHub actions anymore; > > > > > > 4. (cleanup) Delete GitHub Actions workflows to build/upload JIT > > > > > > Executor native binaries on `kie-tools`; > > > > > > 5. (cleanup) Delete `jitexecutor-native` modules on `kogito-apps`; > > > > > > 6. (cleanup) Delete "weekly" jobs to publish timestamped SNAPSHOTs > > > > > > 7. (optional, future) Try and find out how to use Apache's > > > > > > infrastructure to have Extended Services running somewhere so that > > KIE > > > > > > Sandbox can point to it, allowing users to use DMN Runner and > > static > > > > > > validations on KIE Sandbox without running and managing anything on > > > > > > their machines. Making 1. a fallback solution for when this > > Extended > > > > > > Services deployment might become unavailable for any reason; > > > > > > > > > > > > Solving 1. and 2. would be required for us to be able to move > > forward > > > > > > with `kie-tools` and upgrade it to Quarkus 3.20. > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking forward to hearing your feedback on the above. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Tiago Bento > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > https://kie.zulipchat.com/#narrow/channel/232659-general/topic/.E2.9C.94.20Issue.20with.20Sandbox.20Extended.20Services.20downloads/with/509959779 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 31, 2025 at 4:27 PM Tiago Bento <tiagobe...@apache.org > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ricardo, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Probably not brand new information as some people are already > > looking > > > > > > into it AFAIK, just wanted to raise awereness in a more general > > sense, > > > > > > since Quarkus has picked up a good pace in releasing often, so this > > > > kind of > > > > > > upgrade will be a recurrent task for us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tiago Bento > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 17:54 ricardo zanini fernandes < > > > > > > ricardozan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Tiago, is this additional information, or are you replying to my > > > > > > previous > > > > > > >> email? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Cheers! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 1:11 PM Tiago Bento < > > tiagobe...@apache.org> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Timestamped SNAPSHOTs have not been published for the last two > > > > weeks, > > > > > > >> > potentially impacting the Quarkus 3.20 upgrade on > > `kie-tools`. A > > > > new > > > > > > >> > timestamped SNAPSHOT publish job will be automatically > > triggered > > > > this > > > > > > >> > Sunday, but if it fails we'll need to understand why it's > > failing > > > > and > > > > > > >> > fix it so that the Quarkus 3.20 upgrade can be considered > > > > complete. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 12:14 PM ricardo zanini fernandes > > > > > > >> > <ricardozan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > Hi Tibor, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > Additionally, I think I mentioned to you that now our CI is > > > > > > breaking due > > > > > > >> > to > > > > > > >> > > Keycloak devservices issues in tests. Can you please take a > > > > look? I > > > > > > >> > > believe we should disable these services since they are > > enabled > > > > by > > > > > > >> > default > > > > > > >> > > by Quarkus 3.20 IIRC. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > Cheers! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 1:22 PM Tibor Zimányi < > > > > tzima...@apache.org> > > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Yes, makes sense. Thank you Pere for noticing this. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Best regards, > > > > > > >> > > > Tibor > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Dňa st 28. 5. 2025, 19:09 Pere Fernandez < > > > > > > pere.fernan...@gmail.com> > > > > > > >> > > > napísal(a): > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Hi @Tibor (and all), > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > I did a quick test today and I got a warning during > > startup > > > > > > regarding > > > > > > >> > > > some > > > > > > >> > > > > of our Config classes we are using in our extensions / > > > > addons. > > > > > > IRC > > > > > > >> > > > > since Quarkus 3.15 Quarkus started deprecating the > > > > @ConfigRoot > > > > > > >> > > > annotations > > > > > > >> > > > > we are using in our configs in favor of Smallrye. So far > > > > > > everything > > > > > > >> > works > > > > > > >> > > > > fine because they keep backwards compatibility (we are > > > > using a > > > > > > >> > specific > > > > > > >> > > > > flag in our extensions to enable the legacy mechanism) > > > > however > > > > > > it > > > > > > >> > would > > > > > > >> > > > be > > > > > > >> > > > > nice if we migrate to the new mechanism. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Some of the affected configs are: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > - org.kie.flyway.quarkus.KieFlywayQuarkusRuntimeConfig > > > > > > >> > > > > - org.kie.kogito.index.addon.config.DataIndexBuildConfig > > > > > > >> > > > > - > > org.kie.kogito.index.addon.config.DataIndexRuntimeConfig > > > > > > >> > > > > - > > > > > > org.kie.kogito.index.addon.config.DataIndexUIClientRuntimeConfig > > > > > > >> > > > > - > > > > > > >> > > > > > org.kie.kogito.job.http.recipient.JobHttpRecipientRuntimeConfiguration > > > > > > >> > > > > - > > > > > > >> > > > > > org.kie.kogito.job.sink.recipient.JobSinkRecipientRuntimeConfiguration > > > > > > >> > > > > - org.kie.kogito.quarkus.config.KogitoBuildTimeConfig > > > > > > >> > > > > - org.kie.kogito.quarkus.config.KogitoRuntimeConfig > > > > > > >> > > > > - > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > org.kie.kogito.quarkus.workflow.deployment.config.KogitoWorkflowBuildTimeConfig > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > I raised this ticket > > > > > > >> > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/1983 > > > > to > > > > > > fix > > > > > > >> > it. > > > > > > >> > > > I'll > > > > > > >> > > > > try to find time to tackle it during next week. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > On Wed, 28 May 2025 at 16:17, ricardo zanini fernandes < > > > > > > >> > > > > ricardozan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks Tibor! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 7:10 AM Tibor Zimányi < > > > > > > tzima...@apache.org > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > the PRs for drools, optaplanner, kogito-runtimes, > > > > > > kogito-apps and > > > > > > >> > > > > > > kogito-examples were merged. I will continue with > > > > kie-tools > > > > > > when > > > > > > >> > > > there > > > > > > >> > > > > > is a > > > > > > >> > > > > > > new weekly build of the libraries. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Tibor > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Mon, May 26, 2025 at 10:23 AM Tibor Zimányi < > > > > > > >> > > > > tibor.zima...@gmail.com> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I resubmitted the PRs for the Quarkus upgrade. > > There > > > > is > > > > > > one > > > > > > >> > problem > > > > > > >> > > > > > with > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > serverless workflow test yamls. Some of those > > contain > > > > a > > > > > > field > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > "lastTransitionTime", like here (1). There is a > > > > current > > > > > > fabric > > > > > > >> > bug > > > > > > >> > > > > > around > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > this (see the link in the comment). How important > > are > > > > > > those > > > > > > >> > > > datetime > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > fields, please? Because the tests pass without > > those. > > > > Can > > > > > > >> > someone > > > > > > >> > > > > from > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > serverless take a look at those problems? I tried > > to > > > > > > override > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > kubernetes-client to 7.2.0, however that doesn't > > work > > > > as > > > > > > >> > Quarkus > > > > > > >> > > > uses > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 7.1.0. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Tibor. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > (1) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-runtimes/pull/3935/files#diff-df1637d3c414626b6682e77385559f33418b41f02c0ea46a6c472699a270bf1dR57 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 7:00 PM Luiz Motta < > > > > > > ljmo...@apache.org > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> +1 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On 2025/03/24 09:53:01 Tibor Zimányi wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Hi, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Quarkus 3.20.x should be a new LTS stream of > > > > Quarkus. > > > > > > I see > > > > > > >> > > > 3.20.0 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > artifacts already public, however there is > > still no > > > > > > public > > > > > > >> > > > > > > announcement > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > yet. Based on this, I think the release is > > > > imminent. > > > > > > >> > Therefore I > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> propose to > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > start working on the upgrade so it is prepared > > as > > > > soon > > > > > > as > > > > > > >> > > > possible > > > > > > >> > > > > > > after > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > the Quarkus release. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I know we are in the middle of the 10.1 release > > > > work, > > > > > > so I > > > > > > >> > asked > > > > > > >> > > > > one > > > > > > >> > > > > > > of > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > people in the IBM team contributing to KIE (Ann > > > > Joy) to > > > > > > >> > take a > > > > > > >> > > > > look > > > > > > >> > > > > > at > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > work currently, to not slow down any progress > > on > > > > the > > > > > > >> > release. If > > > > > > >> > > > > we > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> agree > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > it would be good to have this being worked on, > > I > > > > will > > > > > > try to > > > > > > >> > > > > manage > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> this so > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > it doesn't block the release work in any way. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Is there anyone opposing this, please? What do > > you > > > > > > think? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Best regards, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Tibor > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Tibor Zimanyi > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@kie.apache.org
