;) Jacob,
I don't want to start a war here. period ;) I am just playing ping-pong to Adam's style, which he sometimes deserves... or - put in another way - I don't want MyFaces to loose half its community due to insulted committers ;). I am absolutely d'accord that Facelets is the better view technology - we should try to get rid of this JSP stuff ASAP. But - with the exception of Mike I think, most of us didn't step up so far. Give us some time... regards, Martin On 12/15/05, Jacob Hookom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The 'jsfc' addition was just a value-add for those that enjoyed > Tapestry-- I don't ever use it and have pondered peoples use of it in > comments online. Facelets is just another option out there that's pure > JSF for view management and allows a lot of features around > compositions, 'user tags', and templating that can be used with Tobago > or any other component library. > > One example that Adam could've provided is that for ADF to integrate > with JSP, it was about 1mb of Java code, while to integrate with > Facelets, it was only 8k. > > If anything, I think supporting alternate ViewHandlers will make MyFaces > a stronger implementation period. > > -- Jacob > > > > Adam Winer wrote: > > >Martin, > > > >Facelets DOES NOT push people into interspersing HTML. > >It allows it, and doesn't blow chunks when you do, but it's > >perfectly happy dealing with pure JSF trees and no HTML > >anywhere around. > > > >It is way, way, way better than JSPs. Period. There's nothing > >JSPs do for JSF that Facelets do not do much much better. > >The issue of "abstracting away from HTML" is orthogonal > >and unrelated. > > > >-- Adam > > > > > >On 12/14/05, Martin Marinschek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>@HTML and Tobago: > >> > >>Tobago has its own LayoutManager - something a little like the > >>Swing-Layoutmanager concept, except that it isn't pluggable. > >> > >>@HTML and Facelets: > >> > >>What I have been advocating in the past - and all other people I know > >>doing any serious development with Faces is to get rid of as much HTML > >>and Java-code in the view as possible. > >> > >>This is the only way to make rendering to different output formats happen... > >> > >>I don't want to be negative here - but if you view it this way, > >>Facelets (and JSF1.2) is actually a step back in development as it > >>allows you to intersperse HTML more easily again. I know that users > >>crave for this possibility, but is it actually something that should > >>be desired? > >> > >>I think that Tobago is one step further down the road here - with the > >>layout manager, the Tobago guys abstract even more from the concrete > >>output format. It's a shame that the thing isn't pluggable though, and > >>that the whole thing is not compatible to standard layouting. We > >>really ought to fix this! > >> > >>regards, > >> > >>Martin > >> > >>On 12/14/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Facelets is just a ViewHandler, that's it-- just as JSP is. The benefit > >>>of Facelets with Tobago is that it would allow aliasing of Tobago > >>>components in simple HTML divs or spans in relation to layout. > >>>Truthfully, it's a very big, win-win situation for both projects. This is > >>>only one aspect of the Facelets framework. If you have questions, just > >>>email the project owner on java.net. > >>> > >>>-- Jacob (Facelets Guy) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>We didn't have the time to really check out Facelets up to now. We > >>>>removed the according FAQ entry and will take some time to look closer > >>>>at Facelets. From the documentation of Facelets we just saw the > >>>>"Tapestry-like views" aspect and this doesn't seem to make sense for > >>>>Tobago. > >>>> > >>>>Regards, > >>>>Arvid > >>>> > >>>>Adam Winer wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Mike is entirely correct. There's no reason why any decent > >>>>>JSF component library shouldn't work with Facelets, > >>>>>and [EMAIL PROTECTED] doesn't understand Facelets. > >>>>>ADF Faces, for example, abstracts away from HTML too; > >>>>>Facelets makes awesome sense with ADF Faces, just as > >>>>>it would with Tobago. > >>>>> > >>>>>The whole "Tapestry-like views" aspect of Facelets is just > >>>>>one small bit of it; the major value is providing a much, much > >>>>>better environment for JSF than JSPs are. > >>>>> > >>>>>Honestly, anyone who uses Facelets after JSPs will > >>>>>never want to go back. I don't quite get why MyFaces hasn't > >>>>>embraced Facelets fully. > >>>>> > >>>>>-- Adam Winer > >>>>> > >>>>>On 12/13/05, Mike Kienenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>I think there's some misunderstanding here about facelets. Facelets > >>>>>>isn't tied to any particular view technology (ie, html). > >>>>>> > >>>>>>"Facelets are based on HTML-designed JSP source code" is untrue. > >>>>>>Facelets doesn't use tld files or (jsp)Tag classes. Facelets works > >>>>>>directly on the component class. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>There shouldn't be any reason why you can't use facelets with tobago, > >>>>>>providing you're writing clean components. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>On 12/13/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>Author: bommel > >>>>>>>Date: Tue Dec 13 09:35:51 2005 > >>>>>>>New Revision: 356552 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs?rev=356552&view=rev > >>>>>>>Log: > >>>>>>>added faq for facelets > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Modified: > >>>>>>> incubator/tobago/trunk/src/site/fml/faq.fml > >>>>>>> incubator/tobago/trunk/tobago-theme/tobago-theme-richmond/pom.xml > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Modified: incubator/tobago/trunk/src/site/fml/faq.fml > >>>>>>>URL: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs/incubator/tobago/trunk/src/site/fml/faq.fml?rev=3 > >>>>56552&r1=356551&r2=356552&view=diff > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>============================================================================ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>== > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>--- incubator/tobago/trunk/src/site/fml/faq.fml (original) > >>>>>>>+++ incubator/tobago/trunk/src/site/fml/faq.fml Tue Dec 13 09:35:51 > >>>>>>>2005 > >>>>>>>@@ -22,6 +22,16 @@ > >>>>>>> components that need a renderer.</p> > >>>>>>> </answer> > >>>>>>> </faq> > >>>>>>>+ <faq id="tobago/facelets"> > >>>>>>>+ <question>It is possible to combine tobago with > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>facelets?</question> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>+ <answer> > >>>>>>>+ <p>It doesn't make sense.</p> > >>>>>>>+ <p>Facelets are based on HTML-designed JSP source code.</p> > >>>>>>>+ <p>Tobago on the other side abstracts from HTML. There are no > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>HTML-Tags in the JSP source code. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>+ There are only abstract tags. The Renderkit converts it to > >>>>>>>HTML > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>or any other ML. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>+ The idea of Tobago is: The theme controls the > >>>>>>>look-and-feel of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>the page.</p> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>+ </answer> > >>>>>>>+ </faq> > >>>>>>> <faq id="tiles/sitemesh"> > >>>>>>> <question>Can tobago replace tiles? Can I ignore tiles and > >>>>>>> sitemesh > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>in the favor of tobago or not? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> </question> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Modified: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>incubator/tobago/trunk/tobago-theme/tobago-theme-richmond/pom.xml > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>URL: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs/incubator/tobago/trunk/tobago-theme/tobago-theme- > >>>>richmond/pom.xml?rev=356552&r1=356551&r2=356552&view=diff > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>============================================================================ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>== > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>--- incubator/tobago/trunk/tobago-theme/tobago-theme-richmond/pom.xml > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>(original) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>+++ incubator/tobago/trunk/tobago-theme/tobago-theme-richmond/pom.xml > >>>>>>>Tue > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>Dec 13 09:35:51 2005 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>@@ -26,7 +26,7 @@ > >>>>>>> </parent> > >>>>>>> <artifactId>tobago-theme-richmond</artifactId> > >>>>>>> <packaging>jar</packaging> > >>>>>>>- <name>Tobago theme richmond</name> > >>>>>>>+ <name>Tobago theme Richmond</name> > >>>>>>> <build> > >>>>>>> <plugins> > >>>>>>> <plugin> > >>>>>>>@@ -75,7 +75,7 @@ > >>>>>>> </exclusions> > >>>>>>> </dependency> > >>>>>>> <dependency> > >>>>>>>- <groupId>javax.servlet</groupId> > >>>>>>>+ <groupId>javax.servlet</groupId> > >>>>>>> <artifactId>servlet-api</artifactId> > >>>>>>> <version>2.3</version> > >>>>>>> <scope>provided</scope> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>-- > >> > >>http://www.irian.at > >> > >>Your JSF powerhouse - > >>JSF Consulting, Development and > >>Courses in English and German > >> > >>Professional Support for Apache MyFaces > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > Jacob Hookom - Minneapolis > -------------------------- > http://hookom.blogspot.com > > -- http://www.irian.at Your JSF powerhouse - JSF Consulting, Development and Courses in English and German Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
