Jan,
Thanks for the very useful information. <orcnote>s below.
-- Dennis E. Hamilton
[email protected] +1-206-779-9430
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-----Original Message-----
From: jan i [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 03:24
To: Dennis Hamilton
Cc: dev; [email protected]; jan iversen
Subject: Re: Capstone 2013 Client Requirements Document Status?
On 24 November 2014 at 00:56, Dennis E. Hamilton <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Oh my. I wasn't around when that project was created. Is there any
> update on what was accomplished? It ended before Summer 2014, yes?
[ ... ]
We ended having a pretty good converting tool for the simple function
groups, so in general this was more a proof of concept, than an actual
implementation.
I learned enough to verify, that with a couple of students one more
semester we could have a microsoft visual studio solution running.
<orcnote>
Is this work all done in Corvalis? That's not quite a day-trip for
Me, from Seattle, but I could visit while staying with my son in
Portland.
</orcnote>
The project files dont need to be svn, we have tested to have Cmake
generator files, that can make both makefiles and project files.
The whole subject was discussed earlier, and it was clearly stated that we
do not want an extra build system, on top of the unfinished ones we already
have, that is the main reason why the results never went further than the
wiki, the branch, and our google drive.
<orcnote>
Great about keeping projects out of the SVN/Git repositories. I scanned
through other pages on the Build Project and learned a great deal on how
difficult it is to untangle the AOO structure at
<https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Build_System_Analysis>.
The gyrations to set up a Windows compile are amazingly gnarly and it is
amazing how many little details have to be conquered, as shown by the
good work at
<https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Building_Guide_AOO/Step_by_step#Windows_7>
and other pages, all having pieces of the story that need to be
consolidated somehow.
The problem with CMake seems to be that it works for the complete build
but that doesn't allow individual construction and testing of modules.
There are some significant problems having dependencies such that a
commonly used module is not rebuilt every time a module that depends
on it is rebuilt. This is described as the Recursive Make problem and
Having a topographical ordering that does no redundant builds is sought.
Do I understand that correctly?
There is also the problem of version dependencies in whatever VS projects
and solutions CMake produces.
I wonder if this is one of those problems for which one more level of
indirection might be quite useful. Just a thought.
</orcnote>
>
> But I think clean builds using Microsoft tooling is a great idea, and it
> would be great if it did not require a POSIX shim and the friction that
> creates for what developers on the Windows platform are taught, know, and
> have free tools for. It could be all right to use a POSIX shim by those
> whose toolcraft favors it, but it should not be required.
>
I do too....goal was to get rid of cygwin, and work like a windows
programmer works.
<orcnote>
I sympathize with having counterparts of POSIX/Gnu Tools and perhaps
still needing them for computational tasks that are part of the current
build process. But most of those have Windows native counterparts but
for command-line and file-system reference notation differences. One
Reason I want a half-step using MSYS2 was that it will run native Windows
tools just fine and that means one could also have Windows batch files
for such things as firing up the VC++ compile chain in a way that does
not require messing with the Windows registry, etc.
"Working like a windows programmer works" may cast a net too wide. I
agree that there is an important on-ramp via Visual Studio and the
Windows tools. I do worry about the level of understanding of the
platform that is needed to approach something as complex as AOO. I tend
to want builds to be as simple as possible and having as few pre-
requisites as possible. I have been working to separate the edit,
compile, test, rinse repeat process, for which an IDE is ideal, from
the simpler build process by which another can replicate the build,
either because that is all they want to do or they are doing it to
support working on a different part of the source.
</orcnote>
> The availability of the Visual Studio 2013 Community Edition can have a
> great impact on this idea, since that now includes ATL, MFC, and much more,
> including built-in git support.
>
yes, and please do not forget that all committers can get the full version
for free together with a bunch of other microsoft tools.
<orcnote>
That committers have, for free, something that other individual
developers must pay for is not a solution to me. Likewise if only
students at recognized institutions get the tools for free. I think
the Community Edition may cure that, although it is pretty heavyweight
(9 GB and needs recent Windows version). It would be great if the
Visual Studio 2013 Express for Desktop were sufficient. I
suspect that, going forward, the Community Edition will be the
likely avenue for VS 2015 or certainly beyond 2015. The CE license
is also extremely friendly for use on open-source projects.
</orcnote>
>
> A REQUEST: I'd like to see a module that was converted along the lines of
> this project to see if my ideas can also be applied to it.
>
you might want to check the capstone branch, some of the latest stuff
should be in there, otherwise I can privately share my google drive with
you.
<orcnote>
GREAT! I am checking out the branch now.
</orcnote>
Steve and I discussed continuing the project with this capstone semester,
but due to a lot of problems with their registration, and the somewhat
personal discussions on this and other AOO lists, I decided to take a
break.
I still hope we can make a future project with capstone, because I at
least, find this to be a cornerstone in acquiring and keeping new
developers. Who knows in the future I might find others who share my point
of view.
<orcnote>
I am completely aligned with regard to the cultivation of new
developers and providing a welcoming on-ramp for the learning curve
and toolcraft required.
I had gone absent from the project and lists while you were
arriving, so I missed those discussions. Thank you for helping
me get up to speed about it.
</orcnote>
rgds
jan i.
[ ... ]
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