Hi All, Its never the easiest task coming up with an acronym that captures the intent. Does it have to be three letters long?
Scratching around I just discovered this: MEIDA (modern enterprise installable desktop application) or MEDIA (modern enterprise desktop installable application) or MEUDA (modern enterprise universal desktop application) Just some ideas to share, Thom On 2011-01-07, at 6:47 PM, Sandro Martini wrote: > Hi to all, > and excuse me for the delay ... > > I agree with Greg that RIA is a term a little outdated now so probably > even the R(Rich) part of it is not-so-much a strong point of interest > of Pivot (as could/will be for example in JavaFX, or Flash/Flex). > And even with the general idea that anything now should work inside > the Browser (Apple is trying to push this with HTML 5) and that Ajax, > Comet,the new Canvas, etc are best solutions for all problems ... but > (I could be wrong but) I don't think this. > And for this many people usually thinks as RIA in Flash/Flex or HTML5 > and some amazing demos from Google or Apple ... > > I like the idea of something like a variation of RIA, but probably > it's better to have something different and if possible a totally > different acronym. Even terms proposed by Niclas, or something like > "Universal Applications" (too strong) ... so maybe here we need some > marketing guy :-) ... > Only one thing: I think no on rapid-prototyping because on the idea > that they remains only prototypes and get never finalized as real > applications ... but interesting idea. >> So, you find the transition from prototype to finished product fairly >> straightforward. That is good to know. > And this is very interesting. Could be useful some term on this field ... > > > In my experience even ad System Administrator I think that main points > that we have to address with pivot are: > - Internet-connected/enabled Applications, and this is already true > (we can improve, but I think we have a good degree today) > -- and on this, I'm working to simplify interaction with some web > frameworks, but this is another story ... > - Install via Internet (the Installable part of the probably new > acronym) ... and here I agree with others that probably here we have > to improve this part, that's why I push so much for example with > re-enabling Web Start support in our Web Site and in our Demos (I have > a ticket on this for the 2.1 but if it's more important I can move in > a 2.0.x) ... but on this, the real world problem is not-so-much the > Installation (done one time per client), but the keep-Upgraded part of > installations (always required, day by day by any client) > -- so on this I'd suggest if it's possible to insert something to > put in evidence the Upgrade part (if it makes sense). > -- a little idea on this (maybe for a future Demo), something I call > "Enterprise Desktop", where like with Apache Maven, the user download > (manually or in other ways) the base installation, and then any other > content is downloaded (like user applications, handled by this common > package) from Internet. In this way for example a Company could Group > many Applications inside it, but for this maybe we have to improve > some parts of Pivot ... and if/when isolates will happen in the JVM > this could be the best ... > - Interactivity, no latency at any click (like page refresh now much > improved with Ajax or some trick like Javascript compressing and > precompiling) but only when the client ask for data. > - Fast Interaction, like the previous point, but with the focus here > on how the framework let users to interact fast with application > features, for example with the keyboard (accelerators, consistency of > standards, etc) ... and here we have to improve in my opinion, if > possible starting for the 2.1 > - Load-balance between the client and the server, using the same > language, and sometimes reusing (parts of) the same code > - Cross-platform ... but we are no more in J2ME/CLDC/etc days, so I > hope for the 3.0 we will be ready for modern Mobile platforms (mainly > Android 2.x, and maybe others but Open :-) ...) > - the multi-platform, thanks to Java > - the multi-JVM language support, this is an important field for us > for next years but mainly for gain Developer's attention > - to compete with Microsoft tools (but not only, in the JVM world the > is even the amazing Griffon), the ability to realize fast CRUD > applications ... maybe with some contribution we could improve this in > a few time > -- but on this, please keep in mind that NOT anything is on a DB (i > work many times in decoupled SOA environments where only few times I > make queries to a relational DB) > -- and on this I like very much the approach taken by Grails (and > later by Griffon), to put constraints inside Domain classes with a > custom DSL thanks to Groovy dynamic features. For Pivot 3.0 I'd like > to have features like these (and the ability to have skeleton of > applications created/updated by shell commands, etc) ... but this is > another story. > -- what I'd like to have in Pivot 2.x on CRUD is (if not CRUD > features in the base package) at least features that enable related > sub-projects to be able to do this in a short and good shape (removing > constraints if any, and improve what is necessary, but maybe anything > is already good). > -- last on CRUD, probably we should compare at the moment if not > with the future JavaFX 2.0, at least with Griffon (currently 0.9.2), > but close gaps on something complex like this requires much community > work, so any help is appreciated. And this is definitely something > that the community has to discuss better, to solve the next level in > real-world applications. > - etc ... > > I agree with calatus that we have to improve giving some more shell > script or class to simplify execution of demos outside the browser. > Even in Eclipse, I think that adding a dedicated folder (maybe under > examples, so outside any release) with eclipse launch files could help > ... I have already many of them in my development environment. But I > agree with Greg that for most cases the Eclipse plugin is enough. >>> Not entirely sure what you mean. All of the demos and tutorials are >>> developed first as desktop apps, then deployed to the web. >> >> The current Pivot site does not provide such development steps. Just >> providing final web based application. > Yes, probably on the Site we could add some zip/tar.gz for some demo > inside (with shell scripts), but we have to think where to put it to > not break our build scripts. Or could be an addition to our binary > zip/tar.gz ... > > > > What I really think it's missing (due to lack of time, funds, etc from > any of us) is something that really uses the full power of modern > Desktops, for example like accessing local storage (some of this will > be possible with HTML 5 and even with Flash today). We have some > signed Demo, and of course we have the JVM constraints, but I think > that in the framework we could do something (at least to show what/how > to do something like this). > On this, I prototyped some code years ago but was too complex and has > been dropped ... maybe we can revise it and maybe move in a secondary > project. > > And one important point is that while for not-full-time users of the > same application (or occasionally users) the Browser enabled content > (dynamic pages and/or RIA/Applets) is good enough, it ISN'T for > full-time users of some applications (where more interactivity and > fast answers is needed). > By direct experience in last 10 years I've seen (and I currently see) > this many times, but customers ask for dynamic web pages (and > sometimes some RIA), so we have to make them ... but I'm sure that our > is the right choice (at least for full-time users). > > > So, to finish, even to me "IIA" doesn't say so much, but why not ? > Comments ? > > Sorry for the long post, I hope to put inside everything :-) ... > > Bye, > Sandro
