Hi all, I guess I would sort of also vote for a separate Project. Would however only make sense if some people from both of our projects would join in.
And name-wise … one of the names of Historic Historians (Ideally a Greek one) would make it into my top 10 ;-) … sort of like Hudson or Jenkins are “famous” Buttler names ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_historiographers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historians I think anything but a turnkey-ready solution will not be accepted by anyone in the Automation industry. Chris From: Xiangdong Huang <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, 27. November 2022 at 14:05 To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Building a PLC4X and IoTDB Historian? If we just provide a solution, or demonstration, then either is ok. If we want to provide an "one-box thing" (even without GUI), +1 for a new project. > I don’t even think it would be bad if an entity like Timecho would add > enterprise offerings, because I know, that the industry won’t “buy” > something, if there’s no commercial support or anyone, they can throw money > at, even if it’s free (That might even make them more skeptical). Yes, indeed. :D Best, ----------------------------------- Xiangdong Huang Ben Hutcheson <[email protected]> 于2022年11月27日周日 18:38写道： > > Hi, > > I think it's a great idea. > > I'd vote for having a separate project for something like this, just so > it's clear that it is a historian and people can build it separately. I > wouldn't want it hidden away in an obscure folder in the PLC4X repo. > > Cake does go with Cafe. > > Ben > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 3:09 AM Christofer Dutz <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Trying to respond to all (except the naming question ;-) ): > > > > @Ryan: PLC4X Doesn’t have such a queueing, but IoTDB has … so we could be > > collecting data on one node, writing that to TSFiles using the IoTDB-Client > > (As Xaingdong mentioned). > > These could either be online and transfer data to the server right away, > > or operate in an offline-like mode and periodically fetch data in bursts > > from the client (Hope that’s correct, please correct me if I’m wrong) > > > > @Xaiangdong: In general, PLC4X operates in an active mode, but we also > > have a proposed and prototypically proven “passive-mode”. Here the software > > doesn’t actively participate in the data acquisition directly, but simply > > listens to the data stream and makes data available. We also have something > > we call a “Data-Diode”, which technically makes interference impossible as > > it lets ethernet packets flow in one direction, but nothing in the other > > (Firewalls usually have the problem of letting packets pass in both > > directions for established connections). We invented this, because we knew > > we will never have validated and audited open-source software, to a level > > that it would be certified for some of these use cases. > > > > So, either we can live with everything the SCADA system is already > > requesting, or we add an active PLC4X node in the secure network, that > > requests data, and simply ignores it, and a second �C passive mode �C node > > sits outside the secure network to capture the information. > > > > I agree that this sort of thing needs to be a “product”. The Automation > > Industry just doesn’t know how to work with frameworks. Ideally a one-box > > thing. > > Right now, most tools I have seen don’t even need the calculation or the > > visualization. This is usually done on another level. Important would be > > that we could be somewhat API compatible with existing products. Them > > usually having SQL or REST APIs, should make it relatively easy to sort of > > produce frontends to our Apache Historian, that are API compatible with > > some existing industry products, so they are replaceable. > > > > If we wanted to add a visualization layer or a data-curation layer later > > on, we should have a chat with the NiFi or StreamPipes folks as that’s what > > they already have. > > > > For now, I would be proposing to build something that uses PLC4X for the > > data-acquisition, IoTDB for the storage and build a REST frontend for this, > > that’s somewhat API compatible with one of the major established products > > and to add more on a step-by-step basis. > > > > I don’t even think it would be bad if an entity like Timecho would add > > enterprise offerings, because I know, that the industry won’t “buy” > > something, if there’s no commercial support or anyone, they can throw money > > at, even if it’s free (That might even make them more skeptical). > > > > > > What do you all think? Does this make sense? If yes, where would it make > > sense to start working on something like this? In the IoTDB project? In the > > PLC4X project, in a separate (new) project? > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > From: Xiangdong Huang <[email protected]> > > Date: Sunday, 27. November 2022 at 06:02 > > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: Building a PLC4X and IoTDB Historian? > > Hi all, > > > > It makes sense to use PLC4X+IoTDB to build a historian software. > > Actually, there are several users using IoTDB as their historian > > solution... > > > > According to my knowledge, a historian software contains several features: > > > > - get data from OPC/modubs server and write to IoTDB > > * use PLC4x + IoTDB-client. (we call this data collector) > > > > - (optional) there is a single-way network gateway for security. > > * If the gateway is deployed between device and PLC4x program, then > > we need to check whether plc4x supports that. > > * If the gateway is deployed between IoTDB-client and IoTDB, then we > > need to check wheter IoTDB-client supports that. > > > > - Calculation Engine, e.g., we want to write C to IoTDB when we > > collect A and B from a device (for example, C=A+B/2 ) > > * IoTDB's trigger supports that but we need a Drag-and-drop > > programming GUI. (maybe integrating some open source projects, like > > Red-node is a good idea) > > > > - get the latest data from IoTDB for visualization (usually users need > > to draw a process flow diagram, and put the latest data on each device > > icon on the diagram) > > * IoTDB supports getting latest data. but we need a new software for > > drawing the diagram (I do not know if there is any open source project > > for this. In our real applications, we ususally buy and integrate some > > other commerical software) > > > > - send alert message if the real time data meets some rules > > * IoTDB trigger supports the rule. but currently we have no a GUI. > > (IoTDB also supports Prometheus Alert Manager) > > > > - get the historical data > > * IoTDB supports that and grafana is good at visualization > > > > - last but not the least, if we provide all the features to industrial > > users, all the GUIs should be integrated into one entrance. > > > > > > Best, > > ----------------------------------- > > Xiangdong Huang > > School of Software, Tsinghua University > > > > 黄向东 > > 清华大学 软件学院 > > > > Ryan Truran <[email protected]> 于2022年11月27日周日 08:18写道： > > > > > > Hi folks, long time lurker… > > > > > > A historian would be great. Does PLC4X queue data on the machine it’s > > > running on already? > > > > > > A common pattern in historians is to queue data on the runtime server > > until > > > data can be extracted to a sql server, preventing data loss, and reducing > > > the need for redundancy. > > > > > > There are a ton of edge cases to watch out for which I can elaborate on > > > further. > > > > > > I’m a former Industrial Controls Engineer turned software dev and can > > help > > > out where needed. > > > > > > -Ryan > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 10:24 AM Otto Fowler <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Would you name it “Cake”? > > > > > > > > From: Christofer Dutz <[email protected]> > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > Reply: [email protected] <[email protected]> < > > [email protected]> > > > > Date: November 26, 2022 at 10:36:23 > > > > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected] > > >, > > > > [email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> > > > > Subject: Building a PLC4X and IoTDB Historian? > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > I am currently thinking, if it wouldn’t be a good idea to build > > something > > > > like an open-source Historian based on PLC4X and IoTDB. > > > > > > > > For those of you, who don’t know what a Historian is. In the > > manufacturing > > > > industry they have these extremely expensive servers (usually you buy > > them > > > > as a bundle of hard- and software). > > > > These servers are nothing else than a really crappy and brutally > > expensive > > > > Database for storing Time-Series data. > > > > > > > > The thing is most commercial products are currently really having > > trouble > > > > to keep up with the increasing amount of Data being sent. > > > > > > > > So instead of suggesting building an Historian at each customer’s > > site, I > > > > thought: Perhaps a ready-to-use solution based on open-source would be > > a > > > > good idea. > > > > Not 100% sure where I’d locate such an initiative, but I would tend to > > see > > > > it more on the Database side. > > > > > > > > I think IoTDB would be the perfect storage system, all we seem to need > > is > > > > some sort of rest-interface that matches the industry standards for > > > > querying the information and on the other side something like PLC4X to > > fill > > > > the database. > > > > > > > > Here some examples: > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ge.com/digital/documentation/historian/version80/c_historian_apis_overview.html > > > > > > https://cdn.logic-control.com/docs/aveva/historian/HistorianRetrieval.pdf > > > > > > > > What do you folks think? > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > >
