OK I've checked on the ASF member list (which is private so there is no public archive).
It is not against any ASF rule to recommend StackOverflow as a place for users to ask questions. I don't think we can or should delete the existing user@spark list either, but we can certainly make SO more visible than it is. On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Reynold Xin <r...@databricks.com> wrote: > Actually after talking with more ASF members, I believe the only policy is > that development decisions have to be made and announced on ASF properties > (dev list or jira), but user questions don't have to. > > I'm going to double check this. If it is true, I would actually recommend > us moving entirely over the Q&A part of the user list to stackoverflow, or > at least make that the recommended way rather than the existing user list > which is not very scalable. > > > On Wednesday, November 2, 2016, Nicholas Chammas < > nicholas.cham...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> We’ve discussed several times upgrading our communication tools, as far >> back as 2014 and maybe even before that too. The bottom line is that we >> can’t due to ASF rules requiring the use of ASF-managed mailing lists. >> >> For some history, see this discussion: >> >> - https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412. >> mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oY5NO2dHWJ_kVEoP+Ng@ >> mail.gmail.com%3E >> >> <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oy5no2dhwj_kveop...@mail.gmail.com%3E> >> - https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501. >> mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=TKTxY_sYw@ >> mail.gmail.com%3E >> >> <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=tktxy_...@mail.gmail.com%3E> >> >> (It’s ironic that it’s difficult to follow the past discussion on why we >> can’t change our official communication tools due to those very tools…) >> >> Nick >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:24 PM Ricardo Almeida < >> ricardo.alme...@actnowib.com> wrote: >> >>> I fell Assaf point is quite relevant if we want to move this project >>> forward from the Spark user perspective (as I do). In fact, we're still >>> using 20th century tools (mailing lists) with some add-ons (like Stack >>> Overflow). >>> >>> As usually, Sean and Cody's contributions are very to the point. >>> I fell it is indeed a matter of of culture (hard to enforce) and tools >>> (much easier). Isn't it? >>> >>> On 2 November 2016 at 16:36, Cody Koeninger <c...@koeninger.org> wrote: >>> >>>> So concrete things people could do >>>> >>>> - users could tag subject lines appropriately to the component they're >>>> asking about >>>> >>>> - contributors could monitor user@ for tags relating to components >>>> they've worked on. >>>> I'd be surprised if my miss rate for any mailing list questions >>>> well-labeled as Kafka was higher than 5% >>>> >>>> - committers could be more aggressive about soliciting and merging PRs >>>> to improve documentation. >>>> It's a lot easier to answer even poorly-asked questions with a link to >>>> relevant docs. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 7:39 AM, Sean Owen <so...@cloudera.com> wrote: >>>> > There's already reviews@ and issues@. dev@ is for project >>>> development itself >>>> > and I think is OK. You're suggesting splitting up user@ and I >>>> sympathize >>>> > with the motivation. Experience tells me that we'll have a beginner@ >>>> that's >>>> > then totally ignored, and people will quickly learn to post to >>>> advanced@ to >>>> > get attention, and we'll be back where we started. Putting it in JIRA >>>> > doesn't help. I don't think this a problem that is merely down to >>>> lack of >>>> > process. It actually requires cultivating a culture change on the >>>> community >>>> > list. >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:11 PM Mendelson, Assaf < >>>> assaf.mendel...@rsa.com> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> What I am suggesting is basically to fix that. >>>> >> >>>> >> For example, we might say that mailing list A is only for voting, >>>> mailing >>>> >> list B is only for PR and have something like stack overflow for >>>> developer >>>> >> questions (I would even go as far as to have beginner, intermediate >>>> and >>>> >> advanced mailing list for users and beginner/advanced for dev). >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> This can easily be done using stack overflow tags, however, that >>>> would >>>> >> probably be harder to manage. >>>> >> >>>> >> Maybe using special jira tags and manage it in jira? >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Anyway as I said, the main issue is not user questions (except maybe >>>> >> advanced ones) but more for dev questions. It is so easy to get lost >>>> in the >>>> >> chatter that it makes it very hard for people to learn spark >>>> internals… >>>> >> >>>> >> Assaf. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> From: Sean Owen [mailto:so...@cloudera.com] >>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 2:07 PM >>>> >> To: Mendelson, Assaf; dev@spark.apache.org >>>> >> Subject: Re: Handling questions in the mailing lists >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I think that unfortunately mailing lists don't scale well. This one >>>> has >>>> >> thousands of subscribers with different interests and levels of >>>> experience. >>>> >> For any given person, most messages will be irrelevant. I also find >>>> that a >>>> >> lot of questions on user@ are not well-asked, aren't an SSCCE >>>> >> (http://sscce.org/), not something most people are going to bother >>>> replying >>>> >> to even if they could answer. I almost entirely ignore user@ >>>> because there >>>> >> are higher-priority channels like PRs to deal with, that already have >>>> >> hundreds of messages per day. This is why little of it gets an >>>> answer -- too >>>> >> noisy. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> We have to have official mailing lists, in any event, to have some >>>> >> official channel for things like votes and announcements. It's not >>>> wrong to >>>> >> ask questions on user@ of course, but a lot of the questions I see >>>> could >>>> >> have been answered with research of existing docs or looking at the >>>> code. I >>>> >> think that given the scale of the list, it's not wrong to assert >>>> that this >>>> >> is sort of a prerequisite for asking thousands of people to answer >>>> one's >>>> >> question. But we can't enforce that. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> The situation will get better to the extent people ask better >>>> questions, >>>> >> help other people ask better questions, and answer good questions. >>>> I'd >>>> >> encourage anyone feeling this way to try to help along those >>>> dimensions. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 11:32 AM assaf.mendelson < >>>> assaf.mendel...@rsa.com> >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Hi, >>>> >> >>>> >> I know this is a little off topic but I wanted to raise an issue >>>> about >>>> >> handling questions in the mailing list (this is true both for the >>>> user >>>> >> mailing list and the dev but since there are other options such as >>>> stack >>>> >> overflow for user questions, this is more problematic in dev). >>>> >> >>>> >> Let’s say I ask a question (as I recently did). Unfortunately this >>>> was >>>> >> during spark summit in Europe so probably people were busy. In any >>>> case no >>>> >> one answered. >>>> >> >>>> >> The problem is, that if no one answers very soon, the question will >>>> almost >>>> >> certainly remain unanswered because new messages will simply drown >>>> it. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> This is a common issue not just for questions but for any comment or >>>> idea >>>> >> which is not immediately picked up. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I believe we should have a method of handling this. >>>> >> >>>> >> Generally, I would say these types of things belong in stack >>>> overflow, >>>> >> after all, the way it is built is perfect for this. More seasoned >>>> spark >>>> >> contributors and committers can periodically check out unanswered >>>> questions >>>> >> and answer them. >>>> >> >>>> >> The problem is that stack overflow (as well as other targets such as >>>> the >>>> >> databricks forums) tend to have a more user based orientation. This >>>> means >>>> >> that any spark internal question will almost certainly remain >>>> unanswered. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I was wondering if we could come up with a solution for this. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Assaf. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ________________________________ >>>> >> >>>> >> View this message in context: Handling questions in the mailing lists >>>> >> Sent from the Apache Spark Developers List mailing list archive at >>>> >> Nabble.com. >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@spark.apache.org >>>> >>>> >>>
