This is an excellent point. If we do go ahead and feature SO as a way for users to ask questions more prominently, as someone who knows SO very well, would you be willing to help write a short guideline (ideally the shorter the better, which makes it hard) to direct what goes to user@ and what goes to SO?
On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 9:54 PM, Maciej Szymkiewicz <mszymkiew...@gmail.com> wrote: > Damn, I always thought that mailing list is only for nice and welcoming > people and there is nothing to do for me here >:) > > To be serious though, there are many questions on the users list which > would fit just fine on SO but it is not true in general. There are dozens > of questions which are to broad, opinion based, ask for external resources > and so on. If you want to direct users to SO you have to help them to > decide if it is the right channel. Otherwise it will just create a really > bad experience for both seeking help and active answerers. Former ones will > be downvoted and bashed, latter ones will have to deal with handling all > the junk and the number of active Spark users with moderation privileges is > really low (with only Massg and me being able to directly close duplicates). > > Believe me, I've seen this before. > On 11/07/2016 05:08 AM, Reynold Xin wrote: > > You have substantially underestimated how opinionated people can be on > mailing lists too :) > > On Sunday, November 6, 2016, Maciej Szymkiewicz <mszymkiew...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> You have to remember that Stack Overflow crowd (like me) is highly >> opinionated, so many questions, which could be just fine on the mailing >> list, will be quickly downvoted and / or closed as off-topic. Just >> saying... >> >> -- >> Best, >> Maciej >> >> >> On 11/07/2016 04:03 AM, Reynold Xin wrote: >> >> OK I've checked on the ASF member list (which is private so there is no >> public archive). >> >> It is not against any ASF rule to recommend StackOverflow as a place for >> users to ask questions. I don't think we can or should delete the existing >> user@spark list either, but we can certainly make SO more visible than >> it is. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Reynold Xin <r...@databricks.com> wrote: >> >>> Actually after talking with more ASF members, I believe the only policy >>> is that development decisions have to be made and announced on ASF >>> properties (dev list or jira), but user questions don't have to. >>> >>> I'm going to double check this. If it is true, I would actually >>> recommend us moving entirely over the Q&A part of the user list to >>> stackoverflow, or at least make that the recommended way rather than the >>> existing user list which is not very scalable. >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2016, Nicholas Chammas < >>> nicholas.cham...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> We’ve discussed several times upgrading our communication tools, as far >>>> back as 2014 and maybe even before that too. The bottom line is that we >>>> can’t due to ASF rules requiring the use of ASF-managed mailing lists. >>>> >>>> For some history, see this discussion: >>>> >>>> - https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412. >>>> mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oY5NO2dHWJ_kVEoP+Ng@ >>>> mail.gmail.com%3E >>>> >>>> <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oy5no2dhwj_kveop...@mail.gmail.com%3E> >>>> - https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501. >>>> mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=TKTxY_sYw@ >>>> mail.gmail.com%3E >>>> >>>> <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=tktxy_...@mail.gmail.com%3E> >>>> >>>> (It’s ironic that it’s difficult to follow the past discussion on why >>>> we can’t change our official communication tools due to those very tools…) >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:24 PM Ricardo Almeida < >>>> ricardo.alme...@actnowib.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I fell Assaf point is quite relevant if we want to move this project >>>>> forward from the Spark user perspective (as I do). In fact, we're >>>>> still using 20th century tools (mailing lists) with some add-ons (like >>>>> Stack Overflow). >>>>> >>>>> As usually, Sean and Cody's contributions are very to the point. >>>>> I fell it is indeed a matter of of culture (hard to enforce) and tools >>>>> (much easier). Isn't it? >>>>> >>>>> On 2 November 2016 at 16:36, Cody Koeninger <c...@koeninger.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> So concrete things people could do >>>>>> >>>>>> - users could tag subject lines appropriately to the component they're >>>>>> asking about >>>>>> >>>>>> - contributors could monitor user@ for tags relating to components >>>>>> they've worked on. >>>>>> I'd be surprised if my miss rate for any mailing list questions >>>>>> well-labeled as Kafka was higher than 5% >>>>>> >>>>>> - committers could be more aggressive about soliciting and merging PRs >>>>>> to improve documentation. >>>>>> It's a lot easier to answer even poorly-asked questions with a link to >>>>>> relevant docs. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 7:39 AM, Sean Owen <so...@cloudera.com> wrote: >>>>>> > There's already reviews@ and issues@. dev@ is for project >>>>>> development itself >>>>>> > and I think is OK. You're suggesting splitting up user@ and I >>>>>> sympathize >>>>>> > with the motivation. Experience tells me that we'll have a beginner@ >>>>>> that's >>>>>> > then totally ignored, and people will quickly learn to post to >>>>>> advanced@ to >>>>>> > get attention, and we'll be back where we started. Putting it in >>>>>> JIRA >>>>>> > doesn't help. I don't think this a problem that is merely down to >>>>>> lack of >>>>>> > process. It actually requires cultivating a culture change on the >>>>>> community >>>>>> > list. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:11 PM Mendelson, Assaf < >>>>>> assaf.mendel...@rsa.com> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> What I am suggesting is basically to fix that. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> For example, we might say that mailing list A is only for voting, >>>>>> mailing >>>>>> >> list B is only for PR and have something like stack overflow for >>>>>> developer >>>>>> >> questions (I would even go as far as to have beginner, >>>>>> intermediate and >>>>>> >> advanced mailing list for users and beginner/advanced for dev). >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> This can easily be done using stack overflow tags, however, that >>>>>> would >>>>>> >> probably be harder to manage. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Maybe using special jira tags and manage it in jira? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Anyway as I said, the main issue is not user questions (except >>>>>> maybe >>>>>> >> advanced ones) but more for dev questions. It is so easy to get >>>>>> lost in the >>>>>> >> chatter that it makes it very hard for people to learn spark >>>>>> internals… >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Assaf. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> From: Sean Owen [mailto:so...@cloudera.com] >>>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 2:07 PM >>>>>> >> To: Mendelson, Assaf; dev@spark.apache.org >>>>>> >> Subject: Re: Handling questions in the mailing lists >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I think that unfortunately mailing lists don't scale well. This >>>>>> one has >>>>>> >> thousands of subscribers with different interests and levels of >>>>>> experience. >>>>>> >> For any given person, most messages will be irrelevant. I also >>>>>> find that a >>>>>> >> lot of questions on user@ are not well-asked, aren't an SSCCE >>>>>> >> (http://sscce.org/), not something most people are going to >>>>>> bother replying >>>>>> >> to even if they could answer. I almost entirely ignore user@ >>>>>> because there >>>>>> >> are higher-priority channels like PRs to deal with, that already >>>>>> have >>>>>> >> hundreds of messages per day. This is why little of it gets an >>>>>> answer -- too >>>>>> >> noisy. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> We have to have official mailing lists, in any event, to have some >>>>>> >> official channel for things like votes and announcements. It's not >>>>>> wrong to >>>>>> >> ask questions on user@ of course, but a lot of the questions I >>>>>> see could >>>>>> >> have been answered with research of existing docs or looking at >>>>>> the code. I >>>>>> >> think that given the scale of the list, it's not wrong to assert >>>>>> that this >>>>>> >> is sort of a prerequisite for asking thousands of people to answer >>>>>> one's >>>>>> >> question. But we can't enforce that. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> The situation will get better to the extent people ask better >>>>>> questions, >>>>>> >> help other people ask better questions, and answer good questions. >>>>>> I'd >>>>>> >> encourage anyone feeling this way to try to help along those >>>>>> dimensions. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 11:32 AM assaf.mendelson < >>>>>> assaf.mendel...@rsa.com> >>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Hi, >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I know this is a little off topic but I wanted to raise an issue >>>>>> about >>>>>> >> handling questions in the mailing list (this is true both for the >>>>>> user >>>>>> >> mailing list and the dev but since there are other options such as >>>>>> stack >>>>>> >> overflow for user questions, this is more problematic in dev). >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Let’s say I ask a question (as I recently did). Unfortunately this >>>>>> was >>>>>> >> during spark summit in Europe so probably people were busy. In any >>>>>> case no >>>>>> >> one answered. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> The problem is, that if no one answers very soon, the question >>>>>> will almost >>>>>> >> certainly remain unanswered because new messages will simply drown >>>>>> it. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> This is a common issue not just for questions but for any comment >>>>>> or idea >>>>>> >> which is not immediately picked up. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I believe we should have a method of handling this. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Generally, I would say these types of things belong in stack >>>>>> overflow, >>>>>> >> after all, the way it is built is perfect for this. More seasoned >>>>>> spark >>>>>> >> contributors and committers can periodically check out unanswered >>>>>> questions >>>>>> >> and answer them. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> The problem is that stack overflow (as well as other targets such >>>>>> as the >>>>>> >> databricks forums) tend to have a more user based orientation. >>>>>> This means >>>>>> >> that any spark internal question will almost certainly remain >>>>>> unanswered. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I was wondering if we could come up with a solution for this. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Assaf. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> ________________________________ >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> View this message in context: Handling questions in the mailing >>>>>> lists >>>>>> >> Sent from the Apache Spark Developers List mailing list archive at >>>>>> >> Nabble.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@spark.apache.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >> >> >
