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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Chief Architect Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398) NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-283, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Wendell <pwend...@gmail.com> Reply-To: "dev@spark.incubator.apache.org" <dev@spark.incubator.apache.org> Date: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:37 PM To: "dev@spark.incubator.apache.org" <dev@spark.incubator.apache.org> Subject: Re: Signal/Noise Ratio >btw - I'd prefer reviews@s.a.o instead of github@ to remain more >neutral and flexible. > >On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Patrick Wendell <pwend...@gmail.com> >wrote: >> Hey Chris, >> >> Would the following be consistent with the Apache guidelines? >> >> (a) We establish a culture of not having overall design discussions on >> github. Design discussions should to occur on JIRA or on the dev list. >> IMO this is pretty much already true, but there are a few exceptions. >> (b) We add a mailing list called github@s.a.o which receives the >> github traffic. This way everything is available in Apache infra. >> (c) Because of our use of JIRA it might make sense to have an >> issues@s.a.o list as well similar to what YARN and other projects use. >> >> The github chatter is so noisy that I think, overall, it decreases >> engagement with the official developer list. This is the opposite of >> what we want. >> >> - Patrick >> >> On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) >> <chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >>> Hi Everyone, >>> >>> The biggest thing is simply making sure that the dev@<project>a.o list >>>is >>> meaningful >>> and that meaningful development isn't going on elsewhere that >>>constitute >>> "decisions" for the Apache project as reified in code contributions and >>> overall >>> stewardship of the effort. >>> >>> I noticed in a few emails from Github relating to comments on Github >>>Pull >>> Requests >>> some conversation which I deemed to be relevant to the project, so I >>> brought this >>> up and it came up during graduation. >>> >>> Here's a general rule of thumb: it's fine if devs converse e.g., on >>> Github, etc., >>> and even if it's project discussion *so long as* that relevant project >>> discussion >>> makes it way in some form to the actual, bona fide project's >>> "dev@<project>a.o list", >>> giving others in the community not necessarily on Github or watching >>> Github or part >>> of that non Apache conversation to comment, and be part of the >>>community >>> led decisions >>> for the project there. >>> >>> Making its way to that bona fide Apache project dev list can happen in >>> several ways. >>> >>> 1. by simply direct 1:1 mapping from Github comments which I see Apache >>> project >>> related dev discussion on from time to time and believe fits the >>>criteria >>> I'm describing >>> above to the project's dev@<project>.a.o list. >>> >>> 2. by not 1:1 mapping all Github conversation to the dev@<project>.a.o >>> list, but to >>> some other list, e.g., github@<project>a.o, for example (or any of the >>> others being >>> discussed) *so long as*, and this is key, that those discussions on >>>Github >>> get summarized >>> on the dev@<project>.a.o list giving everyone an opportunity to >>> participate in the development >>> by being *here at Apache*. >>> >>> 3. By not worrying about Github at all and simply doing all the >>> development here at >>> the ASF. >>> >>> 4. Others.. >>> >>> My feeling is that some combination of #1 and #2 can pass muster, and >>>the >>> Apache Spark >>> community can decide. That said, noise reduction can also lead to loss >>>of >>> precision and >>> accuracy and don't be surprised in reducing that noise if some key >>>thing >>> makes it onto >>> a Github PR but didn't make it onto the dev list b/c we are all human >>>and >>> forgot to summarize >>> it there. Even if that happens, we assume everyone has good intentions >>>and >>> we simply >>> address those issues when/if they come up. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sandy Ryza <sandy.r...@cloudera.com> >>> Reply-To: "dev@spark.incubator.apache.org" >>><dev@spark.incubator.apache.org> >>> Date: Saturday, February 22, 2014 11:19 AM >>> To: "dev@spark.incubator.apache.org" <dev@spark.incubator.apache.org> >>> Subject: Re: Signal/Noise Ratio >>> >>>>Hadoop subprojects (MR, YARN, HDFS) each have a "dev" list that >>>>contains >>>>discussion as well as a single email whenever a JIRA is filed, and an >>>>"issues" list with all the JIRA activity. I think this works out >>>>pretty >>>>well. Subscribing just to the dev list, I can keep up with changes >>>>that >>>>are going to be made and follow the ones I care about. And the issues >>>>list >>>>is there if I want the firehose. >>>> >>>>Is Apache actually prescriptive that a list with "dev" in its name >>>>needs >>>>to >>>>contain all discussion? If so, most projects I've followed are >>>>violating >>>>this. >>>> >>>> >>>>On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 7:54 PM, Kay Ousterhout >>>><k...@eecs.berkeley.edu>wrote: >>>> >>>>> It looks like there's at least one other apache project, jclouds, >>>>>that >>>>> sends the github notifications to a separate notifications@ list (see >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201402.mbox >>>>>/%3 >>>>>C1391721862.67613.YahooMailNeo%40web172602.mail.ir2.yahoo.com%3E >>>>> ). >>>>> Given that many people are annoyed by getting the messages on this >>>>>list, >>>>> and that there is some precedent for sending them to a different >>>>>list, >>>>>I'd >>>>> be in favor of doing that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) < >>>>> chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Sweet great job Reynold. >>>>> > >>>>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>> > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. >>>>> > Chief Architect >>>>> > Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398) >>>>> > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA >>>>> > Office: 171-283, Mailstop: 171-246 >>>>> > Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov >>>>> > WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ >>>>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>> > Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department >>>>> > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA >>>>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>> > From: Reynold Xin <r...@databricks.com> >>>>> > Reply-To: "dev@spark.incubator.apache.org" < >>>>> dev@spark.incubator.apache.org >>>>> > > >>>>> > Date: Friday, February 21, 2014 6:08 PM >>>>> > To: "dev@spark.incubator.apache.org" >>>>><dev@spark.incubator.apache.org> >>>>> > Subject: Re: Signal/Noise Ratio >>>>> > >>>>> > >FYI I submitted an ASF INFRA ticket on granting the AMPLab Jenkins >>>>> > >permission to use the github commit status API. >>>>> > > >>>>> > >If that goes through, we can configure Jenkins to use the commit >>>>>status >>>>> > >API >>>>> > >without leaving comments on the pull requests. >>>>> > > >>>>> > >https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7367 >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Ethan Jewett >>>>><esjew...@gmail.com> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> > > >>>>> > >> Thanks for the pointer Aaron. Very helpful. >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> I won't harp on this any more after this email: my reading is >>>>>that >>>>>the >>>>> > >>main >>>>> > >> concern is archiving discussion, which could be achieved using a >>>>> > >>separate >>>>> > >> mailing list. Major decisions should clearly happen on the dev >>>>>list so >>>>> > >> everyone is informed, but I don't see a situation where that >>>>>hadn't >>>>> been >>>>> > >> happening anyway (which is why I read the dev list regularly, >>>>> sometimes >>>>> > >> look at the archives, and am struggling with the Github messages >>>>>and >>>>> > >> pitying those not using Gmail filters). >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Aaron Davidson >>>>><ilike...@gmail.com> >>>>> > >> wrote: >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> > I don't have an official policy to point you to, but Chris >>>>>Mattmann >>>>> > >>(our >>>>> > >> > Apache project mentor) summarized some of the points in this >>>>>thread, >>>>> > >>and >>>>> > >> > here is the original concern that caused us to make this >>>>>change: >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201402.mbox >>>>>/%3 >>>>> > >>>>>>>CCAAS6=7hkCiT093nXVMcUus8Z-5XCDn=cQ5trjN_Kz9ARe9H=r...@mail.gmail.com% >>>>>>>3E >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 8:08 AM, Ethan Jewett >>>>><esjew...@gmail.com> >>>>> > >> wrote: >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > > Or not off-list. Sorry folks :-) Anyone should feel free to >>>>> educate >>>>> > >>me >>>>> > >> > > either on the policy or on mailing list use ;-) >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > On Friday, February 21, 2014, Ethan Jewett >>>>><esjew...@gmail.com> >>>>> > >>wrote: >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > > Hi Aaron, >>>>> > >> > > > >>>>> > >> > > > Off-list message here. Can you point me to this policy? >>>>>Due >>>>>to >>>>> > >>some >>>>> > >> > > > previous experiences here, I'm under the impression that >>>>>it >>>>> > >>doesn't >>>>> > >> > > exist. >>>>> > >> > > > I can't find it on the Apache website. >>>>> > >> > > > >>>>> > >> > > > Thanks, >>>>> > >> > > > Ethan >>>>> > >> > > > >>>>> > >> > > > On Tuesday, February 18, 2014, Aaron Davidson < >>>>> ilike...@gmail.com >>>>> > >> > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ilike...@gmail.com');>> >>>>> > >> > > > wrote: >>>>> > >> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >> This is due, unfortunately, to Apache policies that all >>>>> > >> > > >> development-related >>>>> > >> > > >> discussion should take place on the dev list. As we are >>>>> > >>attempting >>>>> > >> to >>>>> > >> > > >> graduate from an incubating project to an Apache top >>>>>level >>>>> > >>project, >>>>> > >> > > there >>>>> > >> > > >> were some concerns raised about GitHub, and the fastest >>>>> solution >>>>> > >>to >>>>> > >> > > avoid >>>>> > >> > > >> conflict related to our graduation was to CC dev@ for all >>>>> GitHub >>>>> > >> > > >> messages. >>>>> > >> > > >> Once our graduation is complete, we may be able to find a >>>>>less >>>>> > >>noisy >>>>> > >> > way >>>>> > >> > > >> of >>>>> > >> > > >> dealing with these messages. >>>>> > >> > > >> >>>>> > >> > > >> In the meantime, one simple solution is to filter out all >>>>> > >>messages >>>>> > >> > that >>>>> > >> > > >> come from g...@git.apache.org and are destined to >>>>> > >> > > >> dev@spark.incubator.apache.org. >>>>> > >> > > >> >>>>> > >> > > >> >>>>> > >> > > >> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Gerard Maas < >>>>> > >> gerard.m...@gmail.com> >>>>> > >> > > >> wrote: >>>>> > >> > > >> >>>>> > >> > > >> > +1 please. >>>>> > >> > > >> > >>>>> > >> > > >> > >>>>> > >> > > >> > On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Michael Ernest < >>>>> > >> > > mfern...@cloudera.com >>>>> > >> > > >> > >wrote: >>>>> > >> > > >> > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > +1 >>>>> > >> > > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Heiko Braun < >>>>> > >> > > >> ike.br...@googlemail.com >>>>> > >> > > >> > > >wrote: >>>>> > >> > > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > > Wouldn't it be better to move the github messages >>>>>to a >>>>> > >> dedicated >>>>> > >> > > >> email >>>>> > >> > > >> > > > list? >>>>> > >> > > >> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > > Regards, Heiko >>>>> > >> > > >> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > > -- >>>>> > >> > > >> > > Michael Ernest >>>>> > >> > > >> > > Sr. Solutions Consultant >>>>> > >> > > >> > > West Coast >>>>> > >> > > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >> > >>>>> > >> > > >> >>>>> > >> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>
