Jesse,

> I think your points are completely valid as well Danny. Perhaps my first
> reaction to your original posting was more of an emotional response than
> rational.

No worries, its easily done.

> Perhaps my original suggestion of creating a T4 > T5 upgrade library
isn't
> what is needed so much as a T3 > T5 upgrade?

I think that might be a very good idea, after all the people who have
probably got the most to migrate are possibly the ones who started
earliest.
And a) it gives you (us?) longer to get the work done and b) Tap5 is still
at the stage that it can be probably be fundamentally modified internally
to support upgrade requirements. And who knows, do it right and you might
create a set of upgrade API's in the framework which will work for any
future upgrades too...

> I'm just not understanding if the community is worried about upgrading or
> learning new ways of doing things?

It is actually both things, the two together represent the "cost" of
upgrading however if the cost can be shown to *really* be a one-off, and
can be kept within sensible limits the benefits of Tapestry and the
additional benefits of tap5 will encourage people to bear it.
That is always with the understanding that we won't face the same costs
again for versions 6,7,...n.

> If it is the learning aspect of things I
> think we can clear it up with some more discussion. From what little I
know
> of the current/future T5 design goals it should be the same basic idea of
> having a component framework, just with much less code writing work on
users
> shoulders. (among many other things).

It isn't just the time taken to learn how to do things, its the time taken
to reach the same level of expertise, so that productivity is restored and
enough knowedge is gained to allow people to make predictions about the
effort of tasks, the technical challenges to be faced, and the potential
solutions and get-outs. Its not just about learning its also about gaining
experience and that takes time no matter what, but the easier or more
similar the new version is then I agree that the time required will reduce.

> What is it going to take to make the Tapestry user/developer community
> happy? I'm probably going to continue to fight and try to justify T5's
> design as the best choice to bring Tapestry into the future, but if it's
> just upgrade worries then I think we might have something to work with.

I'd say just the upgrade, personally we've only really had two big gripes
about tapestry3[1] and I'm happy if you want to re-architect the whole
thing, just take your time and get it right because being realistic
Tapestry5 is probably the last chance you'll have to do this for a while.

d.

[1]
1/ we can't make recursive components work
2/ we can't instantiate and add components programmatically to a page or
another component.
The rest of our issues are just the normal extend, work round, or patch
kind of things, we even managed to make Tap3 work with Oracle Portal
without re-writing any of the Tapestry classes.

d.



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