Daniel Dekany wrote:
Tuesday, March 11, 2008, 12:27:00 AM, Jonathan Revusky wrote:

[snip]
Now, I'm not saying that we've reached this point because I occasionally
speak my mind on this forum. But OTOH, I don't think you have much evidence that it is ineffective. There is not much evidence either which
way on that.
[snip]

As always, you are mistaken in this question. As far as the number of
FM users is concerned, or the prosperity of the FM project in general,
I'm sure your activity on this list surely has a negative effect.

You're sure? Okay, fine. But I think my point stands, when I say there's not much evidence either way on that. There just isn't.

In any case, it would be marginal since relatively few of the people who use these software tools ever subscribes to the list. Also, there is no doubt that some people do learn of FreeMarker that way and sooner or later switch. In fact, that was your case. But I would never say that that was the majority of new users we get. It's a small minority.

That
in general it's hard to be popular if you make negative statements is
one thing (psychology...), but that's the unavoidable part. That local
Velocity personal will react with some obvious waffle to any real
critic is also unavoidable. What other choice do they have after all.

Well, sure they have a choice. They could behave like adults. And that's real wrinkle in all this. I think you'd have a stronger case with what you're saying if the Velocity people behaved even minimally like grownups. Obviously, what you do if somebody comes by your list and mentions to people who need a given feature that their tool has that feature and yours doesn't, is you say: "Thank you for bringing that to our attention Mr. X. It's always interesting to see what other people are doing in this application space." And then you go look at what the other community has done and think about how to offer something comparable to your users.

That's really the only sensible way to react. When you try so hard to get the other guy to shut up and start with all the ad hominem, it can only be a huge loss of face. And, of course, whatever silliness occurs on the Velocity forum, not on our forum, so who is it damaging mostly? And with what do people make the mental association? Stuff like this never happens in our community, but we really do basically behave like adults -- not perfect, mind you, but the prevalent standards of behavior are much higher.

Now, of course, if the Velocity people behaved like sensible adults in response, admittedly, I would not be as tempted to participate. It's watching their reactions that is such a wicked bit of fun. And, of course, it's much more damaging to them than it is to us. I've written several truthful posts detailing all kinds of technical problems with Velocity. It's like they barely have the heart to maintain the charade that they're actually interested in this project technically. I mean, they should say either: "Gee, thank you for bringing up those points. It's really helpful to get such a firm critique and we'll work on it." Or say: "Yes, we're aware of these problems, but we're working on it and we'll be steadily improving." But no... they just start with the personal attacks and so on. It's like, if they could just get you to stop mentioning these problems, the problems would cease to exist.

And that's really the way these guys think. If you can pass off something shoddy, then it doesn't matter if the quality is lacking.


However, going into endless flame wars, with subject like "STOP LYING,
ADRIAN" is silly.

Well, I dunno, how do you react to somebody who is just blatantly lying? I mean that kind of thing gets beyond regular silliness.

 You see, after a few mails, who cares about
who-said-what? Nobody will follow, so it's just annoys everyone, and
no mater what, I repeat, no mater what, you will be the culprit,
because the thing has escalated around you. It's programming the
Jonathan => Mess association into the brain of readers, and nobody
likes mess. Strong language is also something that most IT people will
unconditionally refuse when said in public,

Aw, c'mon, Daniel, you weren't born yesterday. They don't care about the language I use. That's just a phony pretext. That's another aspect where they make themselves look ridiculous. I mean, you're going to ban somebody for saying little dipshit to somebody who posted your private note on the public forum.

together with the guy who
said it (out of a kind of snobbism/subconscious-hypocritism anyway).
Also, doing too much of FM plugs counts as aggressive behavior, and
thus that's repulsive as well, regardless of the alleged helpfulness
and correctness of the plug. I'm surely don't known me from being nice
and PC, so I hope it has some credibility if I'm saying these. And if
you have any reactions to this, rather do it in private. I'm out of
this thread.


Sure, that's fine. But don't worry yourself too much about this damaging our project. Such worries are quite overblown, I think.

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

Velocity or FreeMarker: Looking at 5 Years of Practical Experience
http://freemarker.blogspot.com/2007/12/velocity-of-freemarker-looking-at-5.html




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