>Demanding people only interact with you through the forums limits the
audience, feedback and input you'll get for your proposals.
The problem is that splitting the discussion in two media limits the audience you
interact and exchange with, and thus also the feedback you can provide: a
discussion for knowledge creation & transfer is always iterations of input and
output for everyone, not just the proposal owner with many 1:1 conversations but
everyone to benefit from everyone's thoughts and considerations. Imho, a major
issue in Fedora is that we have atm two groups (potentially with a big gap in
between), which some people in between, that very often do not consider each other
and do not exchange with each other, just presuming what interests the other might
have or simply not taking them into account at all.
There is a lot of space for innovation and improvement if the groups would more exchange
& share opinions but also their reasoning and their "WHY", up to how to do
something better. This might cause much more (social and technical) support for everyone.
Instead, we sometimes even have hostilities (e.g., often about packaging issues) because one
group finds out what the other did, or not did, without them knowing, or they simply do not
understand the reasoning because no one took the time to explain in the media they use, and
thus also not allow them to give potentially useful feedback or contribution.
Discourse has become the major point of discussion of Fedora, and although I am
an opponent of forcing people from the mailing list to Discourse, I think it is
reasonable and a good return on (time) investment for everybody to accumulate
change proposal feedback at one place, so that everyone can also read through
the thoughts and considerations of others, including all stakeholder groups.
Hope that makes sense :)
Best, Chris
On 12/09/2025 15.35, Mark Wielaard wrote:
Hi Chris,
On Fri, 2025-09-12 at 10:28 +0000, Christopher Klooz wrote:
2. Disabling debug for non-root users is 100% NO-GO for me, as it will make
Fedora unusable for development. It would also break abrt, which is used for
bug reporting.
Yes, that was buried in the wall of text. Disabling gdb for non-root users
(even if it could be enabled) is definitely not good.
2. & subsequent post: This (ptrace_scope & necessary
documentation & origins of the current state) was a core
element elaborated at different places, along with how to create
the documentation and why. Also, keep in mind that it was
considered to make this a security update separate from my
proposal because the reason ptrace_scope became 0 was an accident
As other have pointed out earlier this isn't an accident. This is
precisely so that when user space observability tools (profilers,
debuggers, tracers, etc.) are installed they work out of the box.
These things are largely already tackled in the Discussion topic. Please
respond and post there, so that the discussion remains consistent and avoid
redundancy. Also, if you have ideas about how to optimize the Docs or so, do it
in Discourse as well. I now focus my efforts there. I hope you understand :)
Demanding people only interact with you through the forums limits the
audience, feedback and input you'll get for your proposals.
Cheers,
Mark
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