>Demanding people only interact with you through the forums limits the 
audience, feedback and input you'll get for your proposals.

The problem is that splitting the discussion in two media limits the audience you 
interact and exchange with, and thus also the feedback you can provide: a 
discussion for knowledge creation & transfer is always iterations of input and 
output for everyone, not just the proposal owner with many 1:1 conversations but 
everyone to benefit from everyone's thoughts and considerations. Imho, a major 
issue in Fedora is that we have atm two groups (potentially with a big gap in 
between), which some people in between, that very often do not consider each other 
and do not exchange with each other, just presuming what interests the other might 
have or simply not taking them into account at all.

There is a lot of space for innovation and improvement if the groups would more exchange 
& share opinions but also their reasoning and their "WHY", up to how to do 
something better. This might cause much more (social and technical) support for everyone. 
Instead, we sometimes even have hostilities (e.g., often about packaging issues) because one 
group finds out what the other did, or not did, without them knowing, or they simply do not 
understand the reasoning because no one took the time to explain in the media they use, and 
thus also not allow them to give potentially useful feedback or contribution.

Discourse has become the major point of discussion of Fedora, and although I am 
an opponent of forcing people from the mailing list to Discourse, I think it is 
reasonable and a good return on (time) investment for everybody to accumulate 
change proposal feedback at one place, so that everyone can also read through 
the thoughts and considerations of others, including all stakeholder groups. 
Hope that makes sense :)

Best, Chris

On 12/09/2025 15.35, Mark Wielaard wrote:
Hi Chris,

On Fri, 2025-09-12 at 10:28 +0000, Christopher Klooz wrote:
2. Disabling debug for non-root users is 100% NO-GO for me, as it will make 
Fedora unusable for development. It would also break abrt, which is used for 
bug reporting.
Yes, that was buried in the wall of text.  Disabling gdb for non-root users 
(even if it could be enabled) is definitely not good.
     2. & subsequent post: This (ptrace_scope & necessary
       documentation & origins of the current state) was a core
       element elaborated at different places, along with how to create
       the documentation and why. Also, keep in mind that it was
       considered to make this a security update separate from my
       proposal because the reason ptrace_scope became 0 was an accident
As other have pointed out earlier this isn't an accident. This is
precisely so that when user space observability tools (profilers,
debuggers, tracers, etc.) are installed they work out of the box.

These things are largely already tackled in the Discussion topic. Please 
respond and post there, so that the discussion remains consistent and avoid 
redundancy. Also, if you have ideas about how to optimize the Docs or so, do it 
in Discourse as well. I now focus my efforts there. I hope you understand :)
Demanding people only interact with you through the forums limits the
audience, feedback and input you'll get for your proposals.

Cheers,

Mark
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