Reposting here what I said on discourse (the irony): As the change wrangler, I am in favour of finding a way to centralise feedback on changes when they are announced to make it easier for everyone to keep up with the conversation. (It would also reduce *my* workload by only needing to post the change in one place - so yay, a little less work for me ;) )
My 2c is is that the change process is the mechanism/process that FESCo uses to manage each Fedora Linux release. That is a big task, and if the current process is making that difficult for FESCo members to do, then I am glad we are looking at changes to make this easier. I would like to resuggest @bcotton <https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/u/bcotton>’s suggestion he made on the devel-list: use the email lists for the announce and discussion, and post one post linking changes announced on discourse highlighting that the changes are live. This could be a potential middle ground. I also lean to batch-posting changes, so this means there would be one post every week/every few days containing the current changes announced, their summaries and links to their posts on the devel-list. I do like @bookwar <https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/u/bookwar> 's suggestion in point 1*, but Im not convinced the changes process should be included as a way to get new contributors to the project. I feel like someone proposing a change to Fedora Linux is already part of the project for a time, so maybe its a way to retain contributors? I dunno, thats a topic for another thread in any case :) *Please see the discourse thread for the full suggestion. I wont even attempt to Tl:dr in case I mis-quote the idea. On Fri, Jul 24, 2026 at 8:58 PM Evan Goode via devel < [email protected]> wrote: > +1. I don't have a strong opinion which of the two platforms to use > (mailing list vs Discourse) but it would be best if there was one rather > than two. > > Evan > > On 7/22/26 12:10, Aoife Moloney via devel-announce wrote: > > Wiki - > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/ChangesDiscussionOnlyOnDevelList > > Discussion thread - > > > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f46-change-proposal-changes-discussion-only-on-devel-list/197431 > > > > == Summary == > > Starting with Fedora Linux 46, discussion of Fedora Changes as part of > > the [ > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/operations/pgm%20guide/changes/ > > Changes Process] will happen solely on the devel mailing list and will > > no longer be simultaneously discussed on Fedora Discussion (the > > Discourse forum). Changes will continue to be announced on Discourse > > in read-only topics to provide a bridge between the two platforms. > > This Change aims to improve communication by avoiding having two > > separate mediums for the same discussion. > > > > == Owner == > > * Name: [[User:gotmax23| Maxwell G]], [[User:ngompa| Neal Gompa]], > > [[User:decathorpe| Fabio Valentini]], [[User:salimma | Michel Lind]] > > * Email: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], > > [email protected] > > > > > > == Detailed Description == > > Starting with Fedora Linux 46, discussion of Fedora Changes as part of > > the [ > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/operations/pgm%20guide/changes/ > > Changes Process] will happen solely on the devel mailing list and will > > no longer be simultaneously discussed on Fedora Discussion (the > > Discourse forum). Changes will be announced on Discourse in read-only > > topics with links to the wiki page and devel discussion for each > > Change to provide a lightweight bridge between the two platforms. > > > > This Change aims to improve communication by avoiding having two > > separate mediums for the same discussion. The current "split brain" > > approach has been a significant pain point for Change Owners, FESCo > > members, and other project contributors attempting to follow Changes > > feedback discussion. Contributors have noted this as a cause of > > burnout. > > > > If technically feasible to use on read-only Discourse threads, we will > > keep the bot enabled that creates non-binding polls ("How do you feel > > about the proposal as written?") to collect community feedback on > > Changes. We will also adapt the bot to disable the anonymous results > > option on the Discourse polls so individual voices are better heard. > > FESCo will consider the polls alongside feedback on the devel list > > when voting on proposed Changes. > > > > == Feedback == > > There was some pre-Change discussion in > > "[ > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[email protected]/thread/Q7KX3BDBUPCNOPVALP5GKR2MHTWB6ASD/ > > How can we improve the Changes Process?]" > > ([ > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/VPQXOLZV3NVUOVTF4VCUEZU2BEFCQVQ5/ > > Maxwell's summary/takeaways]) on the devel list. This discussion was > > covered by LWN in > > [https://lwn.net/Articles/1081557/#:~:text=Changes%20to%20changes > > Fedora grapples with change § Changes to changes]. > > > > Additional feedback was provided in a > > [ > https://matrix.to/#/!DMptnKvPTdgoULzUTV:fedoraproject.org/$MuM8JzFoXojgU1x1LJMUO1Vn6kqOzTOjxSaLwqdjvdw?via=fedoraproject.org&via=fedora.im&via=matrix.org&web-instance%5Belement.io%5D%3Dchat.fedoraproject.org > > discussion in the #devel room on Matrix]. Feedback about Changes > > Discussion on Discourse was largely negative. Multiple contributors > > expressed that the current state of Changes discussion led to burnout. > > > > '''Q/A:''' > > > > * Why not just use Discourse for all Change Proposals and stop > > discussing them on the mailing list? > > ** The Change Owners do not wish to alienate or exclude existing > > contributors who rely on the mailing list workflow to participate in > > discussion. Other Fedora development discussion takes place on the > > devel mailing list, so it does not make sense to migrate only Changes > > discussion. Additionally, we believe that Discourse is an ill-suited > > platform for long, threaded discussions surrounding Fedora Changes. > > This position was discussed in more depth in the Matrix and devel list > > discussions linked above. > > * What about the email interface for Discourse? > > ** The email interface for Discourse is not comparable to a mailing > > list, and it de-prioritizes email users. The Discourse email support > > delays sending email notifications, makes formatting look out of place > > on responses sent via email, and email users miss out on reactions and > > other types of engagement. The ability to reply by email does not > > solve the issues with Discourse as a platform. > > > > == Benefit to Fedora == > > This Change aims to address a significant pain point in discussion of > > Fedora Changes. This should also simplify the Change Wrangler's work. > > > > == Scope == > > * Proposal owners: > > ** Update documentation and FESCo issue templates to clarify that the > > devel mailing list is the canonical medium for Changes discussion. > > ** Work with the Change Wrangler to implement the necessary process > changes. > > > > * Other developers: > > ** Change wrangler: Announce Changes as usual on the devel-announce > > list. Stop copying and formatting Changes Proposal wikitext to/for > > Discourse. Create read-only posts on Discourse with links to the Wiki > > post and lists.fedoraproject.org discussion thread for each Change. > > ** Implement the proposed Changes to the Discourse voting poll > > creation bot. If these Changes are infeasible, disable the bot. > > > > * Release engineering: > > [https://forge.fedoraproject.org/releng/tickets/issues #Releng issue > > number] > > > > * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change) > > > > * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change) > > > > * Alignment with the Fedora Strategy: > > > > > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact == > > > > > > == Early Testing (Optional) == > > > > > > == How To Test == > > > > > > == User Experience == > > Users, contributors, Change Owners, and FESCo members will all have > > one less place to follow for discussion about proposed Fedora Changes. > > Changes will continue to be announced on Fedora Discussion, and anyone > > currently subscribed via Discourse can follow links to the > > corresponding thread on lists.fedoraproject.org, which provides a > > lightweight web interface (Hyperkitty) to respond to list threads. > > Additionally, we will no longer post misformatted Change proposal > > texts on Fedora Discussion, instead providing a link to the canonical > > proposal on the Fedora Wiki. If technically feasible, the community > > feedback straw polls will remain enabled on Discourse. > > > > == Dependencies == > > > > > > == Contingency Plan == > > * Contingency mechanism: N/A (not a System Wide Change) > > * Contingency deadline: N/A (not a System Wide Change) > > * Blocks release? N/A (not a System Wide Change) > > > > == Documentation == > > N/A (not a System Wide Change) > > > > == Release Notes == > > > > -- > Evan Goode (he/him) > DNF Technical Lead > Red Hat, Inc. | Atlanta, GA | ET > > -- > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[email protected] > Do not reply to spam, report it: > https://forge.fedoraproject.org/infra/tickets/issues/new > -- Aoife Moloney Fedora Operations Architect Fedora Project Matrix: @amoloney:fedora.im IRC: amoloney
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