Daniel Ockeloen wrote:

On Jan 24, 2005, at 12:42 PM, Daniel Ockeloen wrote:


On Jan 24, 2005, at 9:02 PM, Emile wrote:

Hi All

from my perspective mmbase is little more than an abstract framework - not
because of what it delivers (before anyone takes offence), but because of
the way I'm using it.  I like the cloud, security, tags, etc, but my needs
are more complex than mmbase can deliver, so I have to build a vertical
framework on top of mmbase - which is a state machine/rules engine
framework, which I then have to build my final application on top of.

To my mind "integration" sounds like more of the same (replacement of
existing functionality), whereas building vertical frameworks on top of what
already exists will be a far better use of time - will also mean that the
core mmbase framework will change less and therefore become a lot more
stable over time.  WIAB partly did something along the lines of a
framework - incorporated into the application, but it was built for a
purpose rather than with a generic approach to delivery in mind.

Regards
Emile


I agree 100% with your comments, mmbase sofar is a cms toolkit not a cms. The result
is a flexible system for people to build their own frameworks/cms. What is needed is more
ideas on how to create 1 or even better several open finished cms products ontop of the mmbase
core. In my own head ive been starting to call these things profiles.

If we want to grow and imho even safe (sorry i am that negative at the moment) mmbase what is needed
is not only mmbase core but several profile frameworks that are complete cms concepts. For example 1 aimed
at goverment, one aimed at self publishing, one aimed at ....

Daniel.


What i mean by profiles is nothing more or less than several end products (cms systems) aimed at different markets. We already
seen several commercial partners do this but its my view we need more control over how this is done and the only way is to
make them part of the process and not leave it upto the market alone.

Daniel.

As representative of such a "commercial partner" i couldn't agree with Daniel more. What we need, and have now built ourselves, is a CMS on top of MMBase. The flexibility of it, because of the way it works as a CMS toolkit, is its strength, but it's flaw at the same time. If we had a "profile"-cms on top of it, which we could, if needed, adapt to customer requests, this would make development on MMBase easier, faster and thus, more attractive.

All open source projects that evolve in to good, bigger, projects need, to some extent, support of commercial partners, because it is almost impossible to create a large user-base without one. I can image that companies like Finalist and other commercial partners find this toolkit very interesting, because it allows them to "sell hours" to their customers for adapting it. That's why they are not very eager to open source all their solutions.

On the other hand, we want to build websites and CMS'es as fast as possible, because this allows for us to deliver the same project faster than anyone else. In my humble opinion, keeping the CMS you build on top of MMBase to yourself, a policy almost all MMBase partners have so far (including my company), is a way of holding MMBase back. This will, in the end, by the laws of the free market, result in another CMS, that is faster to work with, can handle all the situations MMBase handles now and make all the MMBase partners obsolete.

So, i agree with Daniel, and think that all commercial partners should (re-)evaluate their position on this subject. If some partners would be willing to join effort and come to a few good "profiles", MMBase and all it's users are on the right track to a solid future, if these "profiles" are not build, i think more and more people will turn away from MMBase, if not now, then in the next few years, because other CMS's are doing or going to do exactly this and both we as commercial partners and our clients will see that there is a , faster, better and thus cheaper way.

Kind regards,
Joost.
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