We (Ian, nextgens and I) agreed some time ago that we would try mercurial out. There is no consensus on git vs mercurial, however there is a clear, broad consensus that either would be better than SVN. This decision ran into a series of technical and communications problems, and was severely delayed, but will finally be implemented in the near future. The fact that at least four people have imported git repositories from SVN should tell us something! Therefore, nextgens will in the near future post an email explaining that we will do the switch in the very near future, including details of expected downtime and how to access the hg repository. The SVN repository will be made read-only, and HG will become the official repository.
[19:21:00] <nextgens> toad_> I'm done discussing svn-mirroring issues [19:21:20] <nextgens> toad_> if the guy think he has a case, he should raise a thread on @devl about switching to mercurial [19:21:31] <nextgens> there is no reason to keep it private [19:21:47] <nextgens> but I will not lift the download limiting script on emu for him [19:22:06] <toad_> sashee: my worst case scenario is this: we have a bunch of tabs open with e.g. the downloads page, the stats page and so on; we have a freesite loading a video, which uses an iframe so that it shows the progress bar before the video itself, we have a bunch of unpopular pages loading very slowly, and we have a few pages with lots of images on, which again need special handling [19:22:07] <nextgens> if he gets banned tripping the limit he will stay banned [19:22:24] * toad_ ponders /kick nextgens for the zillionth time :) [19:22:29] <toad_> nextgens: you said you'd talk to him [19:22:35] <nextgens> I did [19:22:39] <nextgens> and he replied [19:22:43] <toad_> nextgens: in any case, my understanding from what he said is that the tools are incremental [19:22:45] * nextgens suggests you check your inbox [19:22:49] <nextgens> yeah [19:22:55] <nextgens> well, I have no idea [19:23:00] <toad_> if they are incremental i don't see a problem [19:23:07] <nextgens> I know that saces did trip the limit doing the exact same thing [19:23:13] <nextgens> if he is smarter good for him [19:23:22] <infinity0> there's a download limit from emu? i cloned the entire trunk a few days ago [19:23:36] <nextgens> infinity0> then you are lucky [19:23:41] <nextgens> well [19:23:45] <nextgens> a single checkout is ok [19:23:55] <nextgens> a full dump (including history) is not [19:24:00] <nextgens> and that's what a mirror is about [19:24:12] <infinity0> it was the whole history, git-svn only clones, but just the trunk, not tags or branches [19:24:22] <nextgens> ... [19:24:29] <nextgens> then my script is broken [19:24:45] <nextgens> and sanity can expect a bill from bytemark for bandwidth overusage [19:25:01] <infinity0> nextgens: it does skip revisions which don't affect the trunk, which is what i was cloning [19:25:11] <infinity0> oh ¬.¬ [19:25:23] <nextgens> it's really silly [19:25:35] <nextgens> most people are using a dscm and maintaining their clone of our history [19:25:43] <nextgens> ... [19:25:53] <toad_> "most people" ?! [19:26:00] <nextgens> and most of it happens in private [19:26:08] <toad_> the fact of the matter is that a dscm is more secure and we should have been using one years ago [19:26:15] <sashee> toad_: I came up with a workaround:) [19:26:18] <toad_> however we (you) never got around to it [19:26:22] <nextgens> toad_> saces did it, bombe did it, apparently infinity0 did it too [19:26:28] <nextgens> I suspect sdiz did it [19:26:36] <toad_> nextgens: this just proves my point [19:26:44] <toad_> nextgens: and frankly it's a GOOD thing [19:26:50] <nextgens> toad_> that's not the conclusion you ought to do [19:26:50] <toad_> nextgens: emu could be rooted at any time [19:26:55] <nextgens> NO IT's NOT [19:26:57] --> DaffyDuck_ has joined this channel ([email protected]). [19:26:59] <nextgens> and? [19:27:06] <nextgens> how does that help recovering from it? [19:27:11] <toad_> hmmm? [19:27:14] <nextgens> all those people have got their trees [19:27:18] <nextgens> with their timestamps [19:27:22] <nextgens> ie: different uuids [19:27:28] <infinity0> er, they can merge? [19:27:31] <nextgens> they can't work together [19:27:33] <toad_> sure, because WE DONT HAVE AN OFFICIAL HG TREE [19:27:38] <nextgens> because their history is DIFFERENT [19:27:38] <Smar> they can merge themselves to another tree. [19:27:46] <sashee> toad_ : the server can track how many connections a client has, and when it sees too much, it switches some of them from pushing to frequent polling. When the user is browsing >10 tabs, he is less affected by 5-10 sec latency [19:27:49] <nextgens> Smar> no they can't. [19:27:49] <Smar> just pull to another URI and you’re ready to go [19:27:59] <toad_> sashee: agreed, that is one solution [19:28:05] <Smar> well, I don’t know what svn says, git - git can [19:28:12] <nextgens> Smar> you need to share a common ancestor for that to work [19:28:20] <nextgens> Smar> and no, git can't either. [19:28:25] <Smar> hmm... [19:28:38] <Smar> well, maybe I then did something differently... [19:28:42] <infinity0> nextgens: if you clone the tree, that's a common ancestor surely? [19:28:51] --> Mathiasd1 has joined this channel ([email protected]). [19:28:53] <nextgens> no because you used a conversion tool [19:28:56] <toad_> nextgens: the fact that it doesn't work with separate SVN imports just demonstrates that importing from SVN sucks - we should have an official mercurial tree, and then that can be mirrored properly, and we CAN recover properly from it [19:29:03] <nextgens> which will at some point generate a new "root" [19:29:13] <Smar> fast forward merging for most of files should be enough, imho [19:29:19] <nextgens> using a timestamp depending on when you cloned [19:29:19] <toad_> if half of our active developers are in fact doing this, this is pretty strong evidence that there is demand for a DSCM [19:29:37] <nextgens> toad_> svn can also be mirrored properly [19:29:45] <nextgens> the problem is people want to use different tools [19:29:48] <toad_> so we should implement one - when we are able to do so [19:29:50] <nextgens> most of which aren't even DEVS [19:29:54] <nextgens> but that's an other story [19:29:57] <toad_> i.e. not just before 0.8 and in the middle of SoC [19:30:04] <nextgens> last time I brang the topic we didn't agree [19:30:22] <toad_> nextgens: not true, bombe, sdiz, saces, infinity0 are all devs [19:30:24] <nextgens> agree on something first and then I will do the conversion [19:30:29] <nextgens> and? [19:30:36] <infinity0> bzr has that whole "act like a centralised RCS" mode thing [19:30:36] <nextgens> all of them are in favor of git [19:30:40] <infinity0> i can't remember the details [19:30:44] <nextgens> last time we agreed on using mercurial. [19:30:51] <toad_> so use mercurial [19:30:57] <nextgens> and what about them? [19:30:58] <toad_> mercurial to git is a lot easier than svn to git [19:31:03] <toad_> less issues than svn to git [19:31:08] <nextgens> will infinity0, bombe and sdiz switch to it? [19:31:14] <nextgens> no [19:31:17] <toad_> I don't see why not, they use SVN right now [19:31:18] <nextgens> that's just bullshit [19:31:29] <nextgens> they are plenty of svn-to-git tools [19:31:37] <nextgens> most of which are usable, hence both sdiz and infinity0 use them [19:31:37] <toad_> yes AND THEY ALL SUCK [19:31:41] <toad_> as you have demonstrated [19:31:42] <nextgens> no they don't [19:31:52] <nextgens> they allow you to use git's feature on an svn tree [19:32:03] <infinity0> i don't understand the problem with us keeping a git mirror of the svn tree.. [19:32:04] <nextgens> but not to use DSCMs features accross DSCM users [19:32:16] <Smar> infinity0: nextgens doesn’t like it. [19:32:19] <infinity0> lol [19:32:21] <nextgens> it's not about that [19:32:29] <Smar> that what I see. [19:32:30] *** Smar has been kicked from the channel by nextgens (you won.). [19:32:33] <infinity0> nextgens: so you're saying we should all pick a single tool and stick with it? [19:32:34] <-- Mathiasdm has left this server (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). [19:32:37] --> Smar has joined this channel (n=s...@freenet/translator/finnish/Smar). [19:32:37] <toad_> look, even if we decide we don't like mercurial and switch to git, switching from mercurial to git is not hard [19:32:38] *** ChanServ gives Smar permission to talk. [19:32:40] <Smar> really. [19:32:40] *** You have kicked nextgens from the channel (User terminated!). [19:32:44] [Invite] You invited nextgens to channel #freenet. [19:32:44] --> nextgens has joined this channel (n=nextg...@freenet/developer/nextgens). [19:32:44] *** ChanServ gives channel operator privileges to nextgens. [19:32:53] <toad_> nextgens: do not abuse your privelidges [19:33:05] <nextgens> I don't abuse them [19:33:26] <toad_> well i'll be specific, don't kick people just because they disagree with you [19:33:30] <nextgens> there is no point instructing people who don't even want to listen [19:33:41] <nextgens> we [19:33:41] <infinity0> oh it's just a kick really, if it was a ban it'd be more serious [19:33:43] <Smar> kick as answer to comment is quite abusing. [19:33:44] <nextgens> ^w [19:33:45] <infinity0> anyway have you guys talked about bzr? [19:33:55] <nextgens> I described the problem on devl YEARS ago [19:34:11] <nextgens> I never managed to get anyone reach a concensus [19:34:16] <toad_> as far as I can see, the main problem is importing; once we've imported, we can freely switch between git and hg, it really isn't a big deal [19:34:24] <nextgens> I asked for an executive decision from the project leader (ian) [19:34:37] <toad_> the fact that different devs prefer git vs hg is not a good argument in favour of svn! [19:34:44] <nextgens> and he said, we stay with what we have and we do update to svn 1.5 when it's ready [19:34:47] <nextgens> we did all of that [19:34:48] <toad_> the correct path forward is simply to pick one [19:34:55] <toad_> no, he said more recently that we should try hg [19:34:59] <toad_> and we never did [19:35:09] <toad_> partly because importing is a PITA [19:35:18] <nextgens> we did [19:35:20] <toad_> as you discovered [19:35:26] <nextgens> on which moon are you really? [19:35:28] <toad_> we did what? [19:35:35] <nextgens> what's http://hg.freenetproject.org about? [19:35:44] <nextgens> I've done it, advertized it and all [19:35:46] <toad_> what is it exactly? [19:35:48] <nextgens> no one EVER replied [19:35:55] <nextgens> I spent DAYS on it [19:35:56] <toad_> is it a mirror? is it kept up to date? [19:36:08] <toad_> if you want people to actually USE it you need to shut down SVN [19:36:10] <nextgens> and you don't fucking remember it exists [19:36:21] <nextgens> [18:34] <@ toad_> | no, he said more recently that we should try hg [19:36:24] <nextgens> that's what I did [19:36:25] <nextgens> I tried it [19:36:28] <toad_> my recollection was that you spent a lot of time on it and there were many problems [19:36:32] <nextgens> and invited people to do so [19:36:40] <nextgens> yes they were problems [19:36:46] <nextgens> none of which were addressed by git [19:37:05] <nextgens> I talked to both git's and hg's dev at the gsoc mentor summit about it [19:37:06] <toad_> if it is actually in a production ready state, then give a notice out that you're gonna shut down SVN in N days, and people should commit what they need to commit [19:37:11] <toad_> and then do it [19:37:23] <toad_> i.e. make SVN read-only for everyone [19:37:31] <nextgens> that would be an abuse of my priviledges [19:37:36] <-- Gandalf_Linux has left this server (Remote closed the connection). [19:37:40] <nextgens> we never agreed on switching to hg [19:37:42] <toad_> I disagree, it would be executing what we agreed [19:37:44] <nextgens> we agreed on trying it out [19:37:47] <toad_> Ian agreed on trying out hg [19:37:56] <nextgens> for WoT and Freetalk [19:37:59] <toad_> trying it out means USING IT [19:38:08] <toad_> no, he agreed on trying out hg generally [19:38:13] <nextgens> my bad then, I must have a different understanding of it [19:38:22] <nextgens> okay [19:38:32] <toad_> nextgens: are there remaining problems with the import? what precisely prevents us from switching to hg? [19:38:37] <nextgens> then it means I need to schedule one day of downtime and we can do the switch [19:38:42] <nextgens> nothing [19:38:53] <nextgens> well, technical details [19:38:59] <toad_> it's a partial import but we retain the original svn tree as well which we can archive, correct? [19:39:21] <nextgens> we can keep a read-only copy of the svn tree, yes [19:39:26] <toad_> ok [19:39:30] <nextgens> and we can keep google's mirror alive [19:39:39] <toad_> don't do anything without trailing it for at least a few days [19:39:42] <nextgens> the rest is just about integrating the BTS and other things to it [19:39:53] <nextgens> "trailing" ? [19:39:59] <toad_> pre-announcing [19:40:03] <nextgens> yeah, sure [19:40:19] <nextgens> toad_> send me a signed email with the irc conv. please [19:40:23] <toad_> also, my understanding is that the hg repo is static http, so it can be open to all, subject only to bandwidth limits? [19:40:25] <nextgens> and I'll do it [19:40:28] <toad_> ok [19:40:36] * toad_ will CC ian [19:40:52] <nextgens> people are gonna complain [19:41:10] <nextgens> but at that stage I can safely tell them to fuck off and that it has been an executive decision. [19:41:32] <nextgens> last time I checked hg to git tools were still in development [19:41:52] <nextgens> meaning that infinity0, bombe and sdiz will have to leave their toy to play with ours [19:42:02] <nextgens> and I've no doubt they will moan [19:42:08] <nextgens> (to be fair I probably would too) [19:42:24] <infinity0> well, if it works pretty much the same i don't mind [19:42:34] <nextgens> it won't [19:42:38] <nextgens> at the moment you use git [19:42:40] <infinity0> but just for before, did you lot discuss bzr at any point? [19:42:51] <infinity0> isn't hg distributed too? [19:42:54] <nextgens> we ruled it out at the early stage [19:42:56] <nextgens> it is [19:43:01] <nextgens> but you'd have to use it [19:43:11] <nextgens> at the moment you should use svn and you're using git [19:43:27] <nextgens> you won't be able to keep on using it when we will switch to hg [19:43:27] <infinity0> it doesn't really matter from anyone else's point of view [19:43:28] <nextgens> that's all [19:43:42] <nextgens> well, I'm glad it's fine by you :) [19:43:43] <infinity0> as long as i can do local commits, stashes, etc i'm not bothered really
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