And I am not sure if xor knows what to do from the above ideas. Lets see what he adapts and what changes then. Currently I do only the easy work like l10n support ;)
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 22:37, Matthew Toseland <[email protected]> wrote: > On Saturday 14 November 2009 16:47:27 [email protected] wrote: >> Great ideas from Toad and you. >> >> But there is one big problem: we are quite late in the development >> cycle. We wanted to >> finish a working version till Christmas. Your new ideas would mean to >> make a big step backward >> and start another design from scratch (however, there isn't no design >> yet for the new ideas, only problems ;) ). > > I'm not sure that is true. The mentioned code duplication in Freetalk hasn't > been implemented yet afaik, and there are at least two WoT-based plugins > making rapid progress other than Freetalk, hence the issue coming up in the > first place. >> >> When we containue as planned we wil release something that is surely >> not compatible with the new ideas. >> And clients will use the new interface and implement it the way you don't >> want. >> >> So the question is: start again with new design, or complete something >> that works soon? >> Or is there a way for both? > > I am not sure that there is a fundamental problem here, isn't this mostly a > matter of interfaces and of stuff that hasn't been implemented yet such as > the Freetalk UI to WoT? >> >> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 17:36, Evan Daniel <[email protected]> wrote: >> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Matthew Toseland >> > <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Currently Freetalk duplicates - or is planned to duplicate in the near >> >> future - most of the functionality of the Web of Trust plugin e.g. it >> >> will have identity pages with message counts etc. The plan is/was to hide >> >> the Web of Trust plugin and just have everything under the Discussion >> >> menu. >> >> >> >> However, there are two additional plugins under heavy development which >> >> use WoT: >> >> - digger3's WoT-based IRC system. This uses WoT for spam-resistant >> >> discovery. >> >> - Artefact2's FlogHelper blog tool, which uses an identity from WoT to >> >> simplify key management and eventually to avoid the need to announce the >> >> site and to tie in with Freetalk for feedback. >> >> >> >> Plus, hopefully: >> >> - infinity0's distributed searching functionality in Library. >> >> - evanbd's Fritter microblogging app. >> >> - Private messaging functionality in Freetalk or a new WoT-based Freemail >> >> version. >> > >> > So far I've been successful at slowly convincing digger3 to implement >> > most of the protocol-level ideas in my Fritter draft spec. I'm >> > hopeful that the two overlap enough that (eventually) the only >> > difference between Freenet-IRC and Fritter would be the interface. >> > Conceptually, this is fairly easy: both are a collection of short >> > messages posted by users, and both need to solve the problem of low >> > latency messages without insane amounts of polling. The same >> > related-links structure from Fritter works well with IRC. IMHO you >> > can treat IRC as simply a different interface to a subset of the >> > Fritter functionality: IRC messages must have exactly one hashtag, >> > which is the name of the IRC channel. (Then there's all the channel >> > moderator stuff like banning and topics, but I suspect that gets done >> > in a decentralized fashion that amounts to individual clients paying >> > attention to what the moderator publishes.) >> > >> > So I'm hopeful that digger3 will implement most or all of the Fritter >> > functionality while I continue trying to figure out how to take >> > meaningful statistics, and that at most it would just be a few changes >> > to the IRC plugin. >> > >> >> >> >> And probably more in future. >> >> >> >> Two basic problems here: >> >> 1. Code duplication: All these apps will need to duplicate much of >> >> Freetalk's duplicated WoT stuff (e.g. nagging the user if their identity >> >> hasn't been announced, setting trust etc). Most of them don't gain much >> >> benefit from this. >> >> 2. The same identities will be reused for multiple applications, and it >> >> should be easy to go from one to the next. >> > >> > I'm against code duplication, and I'm strongly against have different >> > UIs that do the same thing -- especially if changing something in one >> > UI means it changes in the other! I'm also in favor of reusing >> > identities -- publishing a flog under the same SSK I use to insert >> > Freetalk messages and IRC messages is a good thing. >> > >> > Note that this brings up the past discussion of trust contexts. My >> > recollection of that is we decided there was no reliable way to apply >> > trust ratings outside of the context they came from (when they come >> > from other people, that is -- if I trust / distrust a person locally, >> > it probably does make sense to apply that to all contexts). Any >> > unified UI would need to handle this properly. (And no, I don't have >> > any good suggestions for how. I'm also skeptical that it can be >> > meaningfully simplified and retain its usefulness.) >> > >> >> >> >> IMHO the solution to both problems is to keep the Web of Trust plugin >> >> visible, and make it easy to use. We might want to rename it ("Anonymous >> >> Friends"? Any other ideas?). It is essentially an anonymous social >> >> networking system: Each user has 1) various applications, and 2) trust >> >> relationships with other users. >> > >> > I dislike overloading the word "friend" between darknet peers and >> > on-Freenet identities. I propose "contacts" for the latter. >> > >> >> >> >> So, the profile page for a Known Identity should have links (and possibly >> >> detailed information) for each of the user's contexts. So for Freetalk, >> >> there would be how many messages he has posted, possibly a list of recent >> >> messages and/or commonly posted to boards, and/or a link to a page in >> >> Freetalk containing such information. For FlogHelper, there would be a >> >> link to the identity's one and only flog. For private messaging, there >> >> would be the ability to send a private message (whether by a link or >> >> inline). And so on. >> >> >> >> We would keep the existing trust setting functionality, and we would have >> >> a similar page for each of our Own Identities. In fact, we would probably >> >> only need one menu item for Web of Trust, which would be a merger of Own >> >> Identities with Known Identities: A list of Your Anonymous Identities, >> >> click on one to go to its profile page, with the option to add more. >> >> >> >> The big gain is that you can find a message on Freetalk, click on its >> >> author and send him a private message, change his trust levels, read his >> >> flog, chat with him in real time, search or browse his published files >> >> etc. This makes the Web of Trust plugin both useful and easy to use. >> > >> > I agree, this would be excellent! >> > >> >> >> >> We should be able to set the trust level from the own identity which is >> >> logged in to the identity whose profile page we are looking at *on that >> >> page*. We should probably also have some indication of how much we trust >> >> the other identities listed on that page: although this complicates the >> >> UI, it is very important practically IMHO. >> >> >> >> As p0s has rightly pointed out, when we go from Freetalk to a specific >> >> identity's page, our main concern is him in the context of Freetalk: We >> >> need to be able to see how many messages he has posted, and how many >> >> messages those who trust him have posted, as well as their trust levels >> >> etc. The current plan is to implement this page in Freetalk, fetch the >> >> data we need from WoT, add what we know from Freetalk, and show a >> >> Freetalk-focused page on that user. We can continue to do this, we just >> >> need to fetch a little more from WoT: The links to the other apps. >> >> However I expect that most WoT-based plugins will just use the WoT >> >> identity page. >> > >> > Click the name, get a freetalk-specific page that also has a link to >> > "view more about this contact" or something that shows the full WoT >> > page? That would also provide other application-specific links. >> > >> > Evan Daniel > > _______________________________________________ > Devl mailing list > [email protected] > http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > -- __________________________________________________ GnuPG key: (0x48DBFA8A) Keyserver: pgpkeys.pca.dfn.de Fingerprint: 477D F057 1BD4 1AE7 8A54 8679 6690 E2EC 48DB FA8A __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Devl mailing list [email protected] http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
