On 03/17/2010 11:16 AM, Denis Gervalle wrote: > Hi Vincent, > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 18:10, Vincent Massol<[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Denis, >> >> On Dec 17, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Denis Gervalle wrote: >> >>> Hi Vincent, >>> >>> We had already talk in the past about that matters. Globally, what you >>> proposed seems good and really honest. >>> But until we see a real implementation, it is difficult to know if it >> could >>> have or not a negative effect on the way the product is seen by >> open-source >>> adepts. >>> I completely agree with Pascal, and I also feel that if what you propose >> is >>> well done, it could be a win-win-win operation, for XWiki SAS, other >>> contributing companies like we are, and the end-user of our products. >>> >>> My main concerns about your proposal is the same as Fabio, it is about >> the >>> ranking of contributors to receive what you have called the good spot. I >>> feel that the policy could be really difficult to write, since there are >>> many ways to contributes. Moreover, wasting time in ranking discussion >> does >>> not go in the direction of improving the open-source project. We could go >>> into endless discussion on that point, and I wonder if this point is not >>> only the result of XWiki SAS marketing departing pushing toward to >> receive >>> the good spot ! So, even if Softec/eGuilde could expect also to receive a >>> good spot, I think that it could be simpler to treat every advertising at >>> the same level, with a uniform presentation, and showing true facts only >>> like the number of bugs reports, patch contributions, realizations, and >> so >>> on. Having a list freely sortable on such true facts, could produce a >>> somewhat variable ranking that does not suffer discussion, since >> providing >>> bugs reports, patch or using the product intensively all contribute to >> XWiki >>> success and are measurable values. Combining them to get a single ranking >> is >>> really a more difficult to agree upon. >> >> Several points here: >> >> * Indeed XWiki SAS would be interested in getting the big sport and >> rightfully so IMO ;) >> > That was not the most difficult one to rank of course :) > > >> * This is not about contribution in the general open source terms. For >> example we have a page listing what people could contribute to (doc, >> patches, ideas, etc). This is about being one of the **makers** of XWiki, >> i.e a large and substantial contribution. If you've submitted 10 patches, I >> don't feel you should be entitled to be considered one of the makers of >> XWiki. Actually, right now I see only one way of ensuring a company (or >> individual for that matter) is a "maker" of XWiki: it's by being an active >> committer. Being voted a committer requires that you show a long term >> dedication for the XWiki project. > > * The number of _active_ committers could be a very good metric for the >> ranking IMO. We need to define active but I'd say more than 1 commit every >> month for example (we can fine tune this ;)). >> > That is for sure a real, just hope it is not to limited... but it has a real > adavantage, being clear ! > > >>> Another way to increase the visibility of contributor could be links from >>> there contributions on XWiki.org, like links from a macro, plug-ins, >>> documentation,... ; but we should than be careful to not clutter the >>> interface. However, this could be implemented has an extension of the way >>> XWiki shows the all authors of a given page, showing avatars, and linking >> to >>> their listings for example, and this could improve visibility of XWiki >> SAS >>> as this seems to be one of your goal, without being dishonest. >> >> Showing contributors is a different matter. We're not talking about >> advertising services from the "makers of XWiki". >> >> For contributors reward we should IMO do the following: >> * improve the Hall of Fame page, keep it more up to date (everyone should >> help) >> * Have a better dashboard on the home page about individual contributions >> * Have an inbuilt forum with points awarded when people answer to other's >> questions on the forum/mailing list >> * rework the code.xwiki.org pages to highlight contributions >> > > +1 > > >>> Regarding point 6), I am not sure this is so pertinent, since there is >> many >>> other place where the project could have been hosted, like open-source >>> repositories (or on my own infrastructure, wdyt to see my logo on all >> pages >>> ;) ), >> >> If we were hosted there, then we would definitely thank them for hosting >> us! BTW our downloads are hosted on ow2 for example and they are listed as >> sponsors indeed. >> >> If the pb is the location, we could keep the thanks in the sponsors page as >> it's currently done: >> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/Supporters > > > +1 > > >>> Therefore I am not sure that XWiki SAS should be shown on the bottom >>> of every page for that. Once against this smell like marketing pushing >> you >>> and I feel the visibility of XWiki SAS would therefore be too present >> IMHO. >> >> I definitely don't agree and I find your answer not very honest. I think >> you have no idea how much it costs to host farms like xwiki.org and >> myxwiki.org. >> >> Let me ask you something: are you willing to put your own money to not only >> pay for the hosting but also pay the people to maintain the servers, perform >> software upgrades, review what is put on xwiki.org and myxwiki.orgeveryday, >> clean it up, spend time monitoring each wiki to see what it does >> to ensure it doesn't slow down the rest of the wikis, fight spam, etc? >> > > Well, I feel sorry if I have hurt you with my remarks, that was not my > intend. I hope you have noticed my commitment to the XWiki Project, and my > comments was there to prevent others to have the feel that the project is > less open than it is really. Footer links is an every page advertisement, > and I really think it should be used very carefully on open source sites.
Well, this is common practice. It's not about advertisement, but recognition of the support. Hosting costs. I think that most projects backed by a company, or even non-profit organization, display the name of the hoster. I just checked subversion (collabnet), firefox (mozilla), everything on SourceForge, everything on Apache, mysql/OOo/opensolaris (oracle)... And it's not about a big "Buy Stuff From Us!!!" button, just a small "Hosting provided by [[XWiki SAS>>httpL//xwiki.com/]]" link. > I completely agree that XWiki SAS has a real merit of supporting XWiki as it > does. What I mainly say here is that the hosting work for xwiki.org is not > what make the merit of XWiki SAS since there are many open place well suited > to host Open Source projects. So when the number of commiters goes higher, > some could argue that we should vote for where to host it. (I am not saying > this should be changed) > This is really different for myxwiki.org, and there you are really free to > advertise more on the hosting side of your participation, in the footer as > you proposed, since this is the may part of it. > BTW, I advertise XWiki.org in the footer of the sites of my clients when > they allow me to do so using the Powered by logo ! And with my current > experience, I can also realize how hard maintaining a farm could be. > > >> Back to the topic, let me know if the sponsors/supporter page would be ok >> with you? >> > > Of course, this is perfect. > > >> My point was not so much to have xwiki sas at the bottom of every page (and >> no there's no marketing push - I think you're a bit paranoiac here - it was >> just my own idea, see the answers from the others btw that should reassure >> you ;)) than to rightfully thank someone (whoever that is) when we're using >> their service/license for free. >> > > I have not any doubt on your honesty in that matter. That is precisely why I > had thought you have had some influence from marketing :) > I hope this made my whole remark less hurting and mades my thoughts clearer. > > >> >>> I would like to conclude on the fact that from our previous discussion on >>> that subject, I had really appreciate your concerns about keeping the >>> independence of the project from the commercial part of your company, and >>> your commitment toward the open-source community is a really good example >> to >>> follow. I really hope that we will be able to find altogether the best >> way >>> to implement your proposal to improve the XWiki Open-Source project as >>> whole. >> >> Yes I'm confident about this too! >> >> Thanks a lot for your feedback >> -Vincent >> >>> >>> With kind regards, >>> >>> -- >>> Denis Gervalle >>> Softec SA CEO >>> eGuilde SaRL CTO >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Vincent Massol<[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi everyone (devs and users), >>>> >>>> While we have a clear governance for write access to our source >>>> repository (http://dev.xwiki.org), we're missing a clear governance >>>> for xwiki.org. The idea is to address mainly the following 2 questions: >>>> 1) who "owns" it and thus "controls" (or rather provides direction >>>> for) its content >>>> 2) can it be used for business advertising (support, paid packages, >>>> consulting services) >>>> >>>> Bit of History about XWiki SAS >>>> ======================== >>>> >>>> - XWiki SAS (http://xwiki.com) is the company founded by Ludovic >>>> Dubost the creator of XWiki (I'm the CTO of XWiki SAS in addition to >>>> being a committer here). >>>> - Most of the active contributors are also employed and paid by XWiki >>>> SAS to develop the XWiki software. Today that's >>>> -- 12.5 committers (developers) >>>> -- 1 open source product manager (see >>>> http://markmail.org/thread/ggaaw4u6yyci4oan >>>> for its definition) >>>> -- 1 designer >>>> -- 1 tester/technical writer >>>> - XWiki SAS sells services around the open source software, see >>>> http://www.xwiki.com/xwiki/bin/view/Services/ >>>> - XWiki SAS truly believes and understands open source, see >>>> http://www.xwiki.com/xwiki/bin/view/About/Values >>>> -- I also wrote a blog post on this some time back: >>>> http://massol.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Blog/XWikiSASAndOpenSource >>>> - XWiki SAS has promised "not to do evil" ;), see its manifesto at >>>> http://www.xwiki.com/xwiki/bin/view/About/Manifesto >>>> - XWiki SAS is paying for the servers and maintenance of xwiki.org, >>>> myxwiki.org, the maven repo, the svn repo, the hudson build serversn >>>> the free JUG farm, and more >>>> >>>> Issue at hand >>>> =========== >>>> >>>> XWiki SAS would like to generate more revenue to be able to increase >>>> the development pace of the XWiki software. We'd like to fund even >>>> more the development of XWiki, so that it becomes an even better >>>> product. We've asked you what you'd like to see in the future in XWiki >>>> and you've answered on this survey result: >>>> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Blog/Features+Survey+Results >>>> >>>> We'd like to implement those features as fast as possible. >>>> >>>> For this we need to ensure that users interested in commercial >>>> services find easily the way to http://xwiki.com, even when they >>>> arrive on xwiki.org. >>>> >>>> This is true for XWiki SAS's services but also for any company willing >>>> to offer services around the XWiki open source project. There's no >>>> magic. Developers need to be paid when they work full time on some >>>> project. We need a commercial ecosystem around XWiki for it to >>>> progress as quickly as its competitors (the collaboration market). We >>>> need to allow for commercial companies the ability to generate revenue >>>> from their work on the XWiki open source project. However we also want >>>> to continue ensuring that all the XWiki development is done in open >>>> source, under a LGPL license. >>>> >>>> Governance Proposal >>>> ================= >>>> >>>> 1) xwiki.org is controlled by the XWiki committers. This means that >>>> important changes brought to it should be discussed/vote on the list, >>>> using the same practices as for code commits >>>> 2) xwiki.org stays open in edit mode to all external contributors (and >>>> XWiki committers continue to monitor it to remove spam, etc) >>>> 3) we agree to start with 3 zones where companies can advertise their >>>> commercial offers on top of the XWiki open source product: >>>> -- On the download page (for business packages, subscriptions, hosting) >>>> -- On the support page (for services: support, consulting) >>>> -- (still to be defined) Possibly on a "Products" tab in the new >>>> horizontal navigation. The idea would be to do as jboss.org is doing. >>>> Projects are open source and community and Products are commercial >>>> 4) the company offerings are listed by their amount of contributions >>>> to the XWiki open source project. The company that contributes most >>>> (XWiki SAS today) gets the best spots (top of the list, bigger space) >>>> 5) Companies who want to be listed should provide some proof of their >>>> contributions to the XWiki open source project >>>> 6) XWiki SAS gets some acknowledgment for paying for the xwiki.org >>>> server/maintenance of it. Probably somewhere in the footer of the site >>>> or on side panel somewhere >>>> 7) xwiki.org should always remain a site for the xwiki open source >>>> community >>>> >>>> Conclusion >>>> ========= >>>> >>>> We want to stress that this proposal is not about XWiki SAS making a >>>> commercial takeover of the xwiki.org site. >>>> >>>> It's about recognizing that if the XWiki open source software >>>> progresses quickly today, it's thanks to contributors but also for a >>>> very large proportion to companies paying developers to work on it, >>>> either directly (like XWiki SAS or other companies that have >>>> developers contributing) or indirectly (by paying for example XWiki >>>> SAS or other companies to work on specific features). >>>> >>>> It's also about recognizing that XWiki SAS is happy to see other >>>> companies willing to contribute to the progress of the XWiki open >>>> source project and thus to provide a place for these companies to be >>>> visible too. >>>> >>>> I hope that all our contributors but also users of the XWiki Open >>>> Source software will find this proposal acceptable and I welcome any >>>> feedback on it. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> -Vincent Massol >>>> Hat 1: XWiki SAS CTO >>>> Hat 2: XWiki committer -- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
