Hi,
when you compare the yields based on fresh mass, are you sure you're
talking about the same "dung"?
Here in Central Europe cattle often are kept in stables leading to
liquid (~8%TS) manure.
In India perhaps "dung" is "dried dung"?
Generally, for comapring gas yields of substrates it's better to compare
gas yields based on VS, not fresh matter, since water content may vary a
lot.
I can't think that there's a production of 18 times more biogas if we
are talking about comparable dung. You may calculate/estimate a
C-Balance. If there's one loading, you can't get more C in CH4/CO2 out
of the system than you have put into it with the substrate/inoculum in
the beginning.
Markus Schlattmann
Am 24.10.2010 11:31, schrieb Anand Karve:
Dear Mr. Bapat,
the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as a
one-time load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas continuously
over a period of 180 days, was an absolutely novel system to me. In
fact that is why I reported it, because I felt that somebody in the AD
discussion group maight know more about it. Since neither the British
scientists nor any of the Indian scientists present there could give a
scientific explanation to this phenomenon, I have ventured a
plausible explanation. The Archaea are a very ancient group of
organisms. Lignin is produced by green plants, which evolved much
later. Therefore the methanogens cannot digest lignin. The fact that
in Wardha, this particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times
as much biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the
assumption that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and
the products of the lignin digesting organisms were being made
available to the mehanogens. But the speculation that some species of
organisms conduct extra-cellular digestion of cellulose or lignin, and
make the products of such digestion available to the methanogens, is
not acceptable to me, because if such were really the case, one would
have used such organisms to produce sugars from lignocellulosic
material and then obtained alcohol from these sugars. Since nobody has
succeeded in doing this, I feel that the organisms that digest
cellulose or lignin consume the sugars themselves and multiply their
own numbers, and that the methanogens consume these microbes to
produce methane. I am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is
logical.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear Dr. Karve,
I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the
discrepancy in the information you have provided here..
*/ on October 17 you said : /*
"In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms
do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of
other organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the
food of the methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to
a field is human food, because through a number of biological
processes it ultimately ends up into products, which the humans eat."
*/on October 24 you said : /*
"According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have
produced about 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this
particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic meters of it."
I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung.
Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant is
generating 540 times more gas than your plants.
Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by
Methanogens which have consumed other similar organisms from the
biogas plant , which in turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold
increase from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
/Again/ _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
Kind Regards,
Sumedh Bapat
On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM,
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
From: Anand Karve <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
scientific based research and questions
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Dear Dr. Martin,
I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I
attended a workshop
arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the
Department of
Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20
scientists each from
UK and India were invited to this meeting.
In the course of field visits organised during the workshop,
Dr. Soham
Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO
in Wardha,
showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas
plant accepts
about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces
daily about 3
cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about
180 days. This
is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds
from the
Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a
similar biogas
plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load
of 1000 kg
dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an
electricity
generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting
to all the
houses in the village. Officials of the Department of Science and
Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According
to text book
knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000
litres (or 30
cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant
produces 540 cubic
meters of it.
Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of
biogas. Dung of
Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and
midribs of the
grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One
has to assume
in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on
the lignin
and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>wrote:
> Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
>
> To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because
they need help
> to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the
point I was
> responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed
*by the act
> of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of
the gut in
> question.
>
> I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that
microbes are
> altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well
established and
> I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex
web of metabolic
> interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is
pretty well
> understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
>
> Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that
the methanogens
> consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a
proposed
> mechanism.
>
> To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous
postings) is unhelpful,
> at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every
one of them? Of
> course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if
only because
> science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there
are indeed some
> layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who
would take them
> as serious guides to the science?
>
> When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report
them - giving
> exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the
field by dismissing
> every other source of information as rubbish.
>
> Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his
opinion - but
> lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical
experience and
> evidence-based information.
>
> I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
>
> Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
> Cloughjordan Ecovillage
> Ireland
>
> On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
>> Dear Duncan,
>> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms,
with one
>> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another
converting the
>> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still
another converting
>> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic
acid being
>> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide
and methane. If
>> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism
that converted
>> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce
alcohol. Cellulose is
>> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world
and with this
>> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity
of liquid fuel.
>> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is
achieved in any
>> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted
from a
>> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the
glucose converted by
>> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same
organism. And once it is
>> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all
the way down to
>> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal
cannot be
>> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and
suply it to the
>> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume
the fellow
>> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to
produce methane and
>> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in
the soil supplied
>> with organic matter.
>> In any case, once it is accepted that the
methanogenic organisms
>> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help
of other
>> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the
food of the
>> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a
field is human food,
>> because through a number of biological processes it
ultimately ends up into
>> products, which the humans eat.
>> Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the
animal eats.
>>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet
is derived from
>>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow
are surrounded by
>>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest
them. They live on the
>>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of
metabolic
>>> interactions is well known.
>>>
>>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung
cannot serve as
>>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of
the body along
>>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>>
>>
>
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>
>
>
--
***
Dr. A.D. Karve
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
*Please change my email address in your records to:
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*Please change my email address in your records to: [email protected]
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--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Markus Schlattmann
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