Dear All , 540 M3 from 1000 Kg of cow dung ? Is it possible that there is an error in measurement ? OR an enthusiastic overstatement by the gentleman ? ( If cow dung or the flora present in /alongwith it had so much of energy value ,,,, it would create so many possibilities )
Regards, Avadhut Bapat On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Markus Schlattmann <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi, > > when you compare the yields based on fresh mass, are you sure you're > talking about the same "dung"? > > Here in Central Europe cattle often are kept in stables leading to liquid > (~8%TS) manure. > In India perhaps "dung" is "dried dung"? > Generally, for comapring gas yields of substrates it's better to compare > gas yields based on VS, not fresh matter, since water content may vary a > lot. > > I can't think that there's a production of 18 times more biogas if we are > talking about comparable dung. You may calculate/estimate a C-Balance. If > there's one loading, you can't get more C in CH4/CO2 out of the system than > you have put into it with the substrate/inoculum in the beginning. > > Markus Schlattmann > > > > > Am 24.10.2010 11:31, schrieb Anand Karve: > > Dear Mr. Bapat, > the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time > load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas continuously over a period of > 180 days, was an absolutely novel system to me. In fact that is why I > reported it, because I felt that somebody in the AD discussion group maight > know more about it. Since neither the British scientists nor any of the > Indian scientists present there could give a scientific explanation to this > phenomenon, I have ventured a plausible explanation. The Archaea are a very > ancient group of organisms. Lignin is produced by green plants, which > evolved much later. Therefore the methanogens cannot digest lignin. The fact > that in Wardha, this particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times > as much biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the assumption > that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and the products of > the lignin digesting organisms were being made available to the > mehanogens. But the speculation that some species of organisms conduct > extra-cellular digestion of cellulose or lignin, and make the products > of such digestion available to the methanogens, is not acceptable to me, > because if such were really the case, one would have used such organisms to > produce sugars from lignocellulosic material and then obtained alcohol from > these sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing this, I feel that the > organisms that digest cellulose or lignin consume the sugars themselves and > multiply their own numbers, and that the methanogens consume these microbes > to produce methane. I am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is > logical. > Yours > A.D.Karve > > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat <[email protected]>wrote: > > Dear Dr. Karve, > I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the discrepancy > in the information you have provided here.. > > * on October 17 you said : * > "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not > digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms to > digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It is > like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through a > number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which > the humans eat." > > *on October 24 you said : * > "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about > 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant > produces 540 cubic meters of it." > > > I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung. > Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating 540 > times more gas than your plants. > Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by Methanogens > which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant , which in > turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ? > Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase > from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ? > *Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ? > > Kind Regards, > Sumedh Bapat > > > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Send Digestion mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based > research and questions (Anand Karve) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800 > From: Anand Karve <[email protected]> > To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More > scientific based research and questions > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Dr. Martin, > I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a workshop > arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of > Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each from > UK and India were invited to this meeting. > In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham > Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in Wardha, > showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant accepts > about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3 > cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days. This > is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the > Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar biogas > plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load of 1000 kg > dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity > generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all the > houses in the village. Officials of the Department of Science and > Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text book > knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30 > cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic > meters of it. > Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a > scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung of > Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of the > grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to assume > in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the lignin > and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes. > Yours > A.D.Karve > > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree? > > > > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need help > > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was > > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the act > > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in > > question. > > > > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are > > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well established > and > > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of > metabolic > > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well > > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover. > > > > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the methanogens > > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed > > mechanism. > > > > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is > unhelpful, > > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them? Of > > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because > > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed some > > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take > them > > as serious guides to the science? > > > > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them - giving > > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by > dismissing > > every other source of information as rubbish. > > > > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion - but > > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and > > evidence-based information. > > > > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate. > > > > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI > > Cloughjordan Ecovillage > > Ireland > > > > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Dear Duncan, > >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one > >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the > >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another > converting > >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid being > >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and methane. > If > >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that > converted > >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol. > Cellulose is > >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with this > >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid > fuel. > >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved in > any > >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a > >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose > converted by > >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And once > it is > >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way down > to > >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be > >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to > the > >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the fellow > >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce methane > and > >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil > supplied > >> with organic matter. > >> In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms > >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other > >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the > >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is human > food, > >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up > into > >> products, which the humans eat. > >> Yours > >> A.D.Karve > >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin < > [email protected] > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats. > >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived > from > >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are > surrounded by > >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They live > on the > >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic > >>> interactions is well known. > >>> > >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot serve > as > >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body > along > >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Digestion mailing list > >> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > >> [email protected] > >> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > >> > >> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > >> > >> for more information about digestion, see > >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas > >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > >> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Digestion mailing list > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > [email protected] > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > for more information about digestion, see > > Beginner's Guide to Biogas > > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > > > > > > > > > -- > *** > Dr. A.D. Karve > President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) > > *Please change my email address in your records to: [email protected] * > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101024/49a74dc6/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Digestion mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more information about digestion, see > Beginner's Guide to Biogas > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > > > > End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40 > **************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > Digestion mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more information about digestion, see > Beginner's Guide to Biogas > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > > > > > > -- > *** > Dr. A.D. Karve > President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) > > *Please change my email address in your records to: [email protected] * > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Digestion mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web > pagehttp://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more information about digestion, see > Beginner's Guide to Biogashttp://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > > > > -- > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen, > Markus Schlattmann > > -------------------------------------- > schlattmann sustainablesschlattmann.de > > Dipl.-Ing. agr. Markus Schlattmann > Grünseiboldsdorfer Weg 5 > 85416 Langenbach > > Tel.: +49 (0)8761 72162-60 > Fax.: +49 (0)8761 72162-61 > > E-Mail: fir...@schlattmann de > Web:www.schlattmann.de > ------------------------------------- > > Die Informationen in dieser E-Mail und im Anhang sind vertraulich und > nur für den/die benannten Empfänger bestimmt. Öffnen, Nutzen oder > Verbreiten durch unautorisierte Personen ist untersagt. Falls Sie nicht > der Empfänger oder eine entsprechend autorisierte Person sind, > informieren Sie bitte den Absender und vernichten Sie die Nachricht. > > > The information in this email and in any attachment is confidential and > intended only for the attention and use of the recipient(s) as > addressed. It must not be disclosed, used or disseminated by any > unauthorized person. If you are not the intended recipient or > accordingly authorized, please contact the sender and delete the > message. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Digestion mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more information about digestion, see > Beginner's Guide to Biogas > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > > >
_______________________________________________ Digestion mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org for more information about digestion, see Beginner's Guide to Biogas http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
