Great discussion. I started using Axure around 2-3 yrs ago. Before finalizing on Axure I spoke to an iRise sales rep. but he wasn't much interested to talk to me as I was just an individual in a small company. Now that Axure has captured a good market size iRise is trying these tactics. We as a community, if we believe 100% in Axure, can start a website like boycottiRise.com and pass it around.
Prince Arora www.duxjobs.com On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:10 PM, IxDA Digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Eight comments by Fred Beecher, et al... > Started June 6th at 6:00am > > View the thread online: > http://www.ixda.org/discuss.php?post=29902 > > Comments in this digest: > 1. Fred Beecher - All, I really hope anyone considering iRise... > 2. Todd Zaki Warfel - Not to mention that the About iRise > section... > 3. Alexander Baxevanis - Here is the patent in question:... > 4. Fred Beecher - It looks like the first one is an extension... > 5. Will Evans - We as a community can simply say we shall not... > 6. Will Evans - I have already sent emails to iRise (being a... > 7. Charles B. Kreitzberg - I've served as an expert witness in > several... > 8. Jack Moffett - What affect could this patent have on Adobe's... > > Note: To subscribe to followup digests for this particular thread, > reply with the word 'follow' in the body of your e-mail. > > > > I x D A D I G E S T > > iRise sues Axure for "patent infringement" > Started June 6th at 6:00am > > > 1. Fred Beecher - Friday, 6:00am > > All, > > I really hope anyone considering iRise reads this before making their final > decision. We're a fairly small community and in general we all play well > together. Given this, it is *amazing* that we have a choice of tools to > use. > So this kind of blatant and reprehensible grab for market share (see below) > should not go unnoticed. > Disclosure: While I do not work for Axure, I do have a formal agreement > with > them to do training for their clients when they request it. Also, I am > admittedly an Axure fanboy. I have had no problems recommending iRise in > the > past when the situation warrants, but after this that will change. > > I learned last night that iRise is suing Axure for patent infringement. > Essentially, they're trying to sue Axure out of business. > > http://www.centredaily.com/business/technology/story/638693.html > > Mind you, the "patent" that's being infringed was filed by iRise on March > 25, 2008, and it is essentially a patent on the idea of a rapid prototyping > & documentation tool: > > "The patent, titled 'Systems and Methods for a Programming Environment for > a Simulation of a Computer Application," relates to interactive simulation > systems and, more particularly, to the editing and association of > text-based > requirements in the context of an interactive simulation authoring > environment." > > So essentially, every time we create an annotated wireframe (whether in > Axure or no) we are violating this patent. This is completely ridiculous. > Axure has been around since 2003 and iRise is suing for a "patent" they got > in 2008? Absurd. > > What follows is complete speculation: I imagine that what's happening is > that iRise is losing LOTS of customers to Axure. Axure costs $589 per > license compared to iRise's $6,000 - $10,000 (yes, per license). That's *an > order of magnitude* more expensive. While for some customers the > capabilities of iRise are likely worth it, I'm guessing most are opting for > the cheaper option that does 95% of what iRise does. So, faced with a dire > financial situation, they're attempting to sue Axure out of business. Read > the article. The lawsuit says they want Axure to stop selling rapid > prototyping products. Axure doesn't sell anything else. > > I am... I am very disappointed about all this. And while there's just no > way > this lawsuit can go through, it still eats me up inside that a company that > plays in our relatively tiny little industry would pull crap like this. > > Okay, time to cool off... > > - Fred > > > > > > 2. Todd Zaki Warfel - Friday, 6:20am > > On Jun 6, 2008, at 9:00 AM, Fred Beecher wrote: > > > http://www.centredaily.com/business/technology/story/638693.html > > Not to mention that the About iRise section is a bit misleading: > > "Companies of all sizes like UPS, Wachovia, M.D. Anderson Cancer > Center, Manpower, CompuCredit, Capgemini, and many others use iRise to > "test drive" their applications before building" > > Companies of ALL sizes? Really. Well, my company is 5, we're a size, > and we can't afford iRise. > > Cheers! > > Todd Zaki Warfel > President, Design Researcher > Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. > > Contact Info > Voice: (215) 825-7423 > Email: todd at messagefirst.com > AIM: twarfel at mac.com > Blog: http://toddwarfel.com > Twitter: zakiwarfel > > In theory, theory and practice are the same. > In practice, they are not. > > > > > > 3. Alexander Baxevanis - Friday, 7:15am > > Here is the patent in question: > > http://tinyurl.com/3mvrls > > and an earlier patent that they also own: > > http://www.google.com/patents?id=hrmAAAAAEBAJ&dq=7,174,286 > > I think those patents were filed around 2004, and I really wonder if > such tools never existed in some form before that time. Maybe some of > the people in the list who've been in the industry for long enough can > provide some insight. > > If "prior art" can be found (proving that such things existed before > the patent was applied for) then the patent can be declared invalid. > The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has taken up quite a few such > cases - see http://www.eff.org/issues/patents > > Maybe this is an issue where the IxDA community can liaise with EFF > and raise another case like that. > > Regards, > Alex > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Fred Beecher <fbeecher at gmail.com> > wrote: > > All, > > I really hope anyone considering iRise reads this before making their > final > > decision. We're a fairly small community and in general we all play well > > together. Given this, it is *amazing* that we have a choice of tools to > use. > > > > > > 4. Fred Beecher - Friday, 7:33am > > On 6/6/08, Alexander Baxevanis <alex.baxevanis at gmail.com> wrote: > > and an earlier patent that they also own: > > http://www.google.com/patents?id=hrmAAAAAEBAJ&dq=7,174,286 > > I think those patents were filed around 2004, and I really wonder if > > such tools never existed in some form before that time. Maybe some of > > It looks like the first one is an extension of the second, which was > *filed* > around 2004 and granted in 2007. > > If "prior art" can be found (proving that such things existed before > > the patent was applied for) then the patent can be declared invalid. > > The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has taken up quite a few such > > cases - see http://www.eff.org/issues/patents > > Well Axure itself existed before either patent was applied for. It was > first > released in 2003. > > Does "prior art" also cover offline practices? We've been doing annotated > wireframes forever, and what both Axure and iRise have done is to take that > offline practice and extend it into prototyping. They've just taken very > different approaches to doing so. > > Maybe this is an issue where the IxDA community can liaise with EFF > > and raise another case like that. > > That would be fabulous. Does anyone here have contacts in the EFF? > > - Fred > > > > > > 5. Will Evans - Friday, 7:43am > > We as a community can simply say we shall not stand for this. > > We are the ones, as customers, with power..... we can let them know. > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Fred Beecher <fbeecher at gmail.com> > wrote: > > > It looks like the first one is an extension of the second, which was > > *filed* > > around 2004 and granted in 2007. > > If "prior art" can be found (proving that such things existed before > > -- > ~ will > > "Where you innovate, how you innovate, > and what you innovate are design problems" > > > Will Evans | User Experience Architect > tel +1.617.281.1281 | will at semanticfoundry.com > twitter: https://twitter.com/semanticwill > > > > > > 6. Will Evans - Friday, 8:07am > > I have already sent emails to iRise (being a customer), as well as left two > voice mails. I have/will use both based on my needs - but this thing iRise > is doing is simply not right. > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Nancy Roberts <nancyc.roberts at > gmail.com> > wrote: > > > How do we do that? I have been using Axure since it was first published > (as > > Ubiquity), and our company can't afford the more pricey alternative, > either. > > wrote: > > -- > ~ will > > "Where you innovate, how you innovate, > and what you innovate are design problems" > > > Will Evans | User Experience Architect > tel +1.617.281.1281 | will at semanticfoundry.com > twitter: https://twitter.com/semanticwill > > > > > > 7. Charles B. Kreitzberg - Friday, 8:11am > > I've served as an expert witness in several patent infringement cases and > have had the (sometime uncomfortable) experience of seeing the process > close-up. > > It can be a very expensive and nasty process. The last case that I was > involved with went on for years and cost the companies millions of dollars > in legal fees. > > The legal process as I experienced it is not intuitive to many non-lawyers. > Much of it revolves around debating the precise meaning of words and the > arguments can sometimes feel like debates about how many angels can dance > on > the head of a pin. While I am not allowed to talk about cases in which I > was > involved, here are two examples of the sort of thing that can take years > and > many dollars to resolve: > > 1. The patent says that the user can click on a link and perform some > action. But in fact, it's a double click. The lawyers will argue that that > a > double click requires two steps so is not the same as a single click. > > 2. The patent says that the user can click on a link and transmit a file. > But in practice, the modem needs to be initialized and presents a dialog > box > which requires another click. The lawyers argue that the patent is not > applicable because the file is not actually transmitted when the user > clicks > on the link. > > Generally patent infringement cases hinge on whether the alleged infringing > software is the "same" as the software described in the patent. Since > natural language is, by nature, ambiguous there is a lot of room to argue > the points. > > Whatever the reality, it costs a lot of money to defend a patent > infringement suit. > > Sometimes the goal is to wipe out the competition, sometimes it's to get > the > competition to pay license fees. In any case it is an expensive and painful > process. > > Charlie > > > Charles B. Kreitzberg, Ph.D. > CEO, Cognetics Corporation > > > > > > 8. Jack Moffett - Friday, 8:16am > > What affect could this patent have on Adobe's Thermo? Is anybody from > the team currently reading the list? Narciso? > > Jack > > Jack L. Moffett > Interaction Designer > inmedius > 412.459.0310 x219 > http://www.inmedius.com > > Things should be as simple as possible, > but no simpler. > > - Albert Einstein > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ....... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help > ________________________________________________________________ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ....... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
