[OSGeo-Discuss] Re: FOSS4GIS business models

Thu, 03 Jan 2008 05:01:44 -0800 

Dear OSGEO Discussion List members:

Paul Ramsey´s remarks are right on target.

First, GIS is a large arena and there are
different motivations for developers, that
prevent them from joining a single project such as uDIG.

Second, it is very difficult for a private
company to develop a world-class FOSS4G product
and survive based only on consulting
fees for the commercial sector.

Third, to overcome these limitations there is
a need for governmental intervention, which may
be direct, as in the case of Catalonian government´s
support for gvSIG, or indirect, as in the decision
of Germany to support open source software.

In Brazil, the National Institute for Space Research (INPE)
has been supporting local GIS development for 25 years,
with a lot of success in our national user community.
Without official support, there would be no local FOOS4G
development in Brazil.

In 2003, I did a F00S4G market survey and published the
results as a chapter of a US National Academy of Sciences book:
"Open Source GIS Software: Myths and Realities"
<www.dpi.inpe.br/gilberto/papers/camara_open_source_myths.pdf>.

We analysed 70 FOSS4G software projects taken from the
FreeGIS list, and divided them into three categories:
networked products (e.g. GRASS), corporate products (e.g., PostGIS)
and individual products (e.g., CAVOR). From each product,
we assessed its maturity, level of support and functionality.

Our main conclusions at the time were:
(a) Only 6% of the  products were developed by networked teams.
    Thus, the “Linux paradigm” is the exception rather than the rule.
(b) Corporations (private or public) are the main developers of
    successful open source products. Corporations account for 41% of
    all products.
(e) Individual-led software (a small team of 1-3 people) have
    less quality and more mortality than the above.

These results show that the impetus behind successful
open source software was not coming from altruistic individuals
working in the midnight hour, but from professional programmers.
I consider that a similar result would be obtained today, should
the assessment be repeated.

This analysis was further elaborated in a JASIST paper:
"Information Policies and Open Source Software in Developing Countries"
<www.dpi.inpe.br/gilberto/papers/camara_fonseca_jasist.pdf>.

For the FOSS4G effort to be fruitful and sustainable,
we need a very informed and candid assessment of our
business model. My personal view, based on 25 years of experience,
is that government intervention is essential for the open source
model to survive beyond a handful of examples.

Best regards
Gilberto
--
===========================================
Dr.Gilberto Camara
Director General
National Institute for Space Research (INPE)
Sao Jose dos Campos, Brazil
web:   http://www.dpi.inpe.br/gilberto
============================================

[EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu:

Send Discuss mailing list submissions to
        [email protected]

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
        http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
        [EMAIL PROTECTED]

You can reach the person managing the list at
        [EMAIL PROTECTED]

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Discuss digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,      but FOSS GIS clients...
      (Paul Ramsey)
   2. RE: Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,  but FOSS GIS
      clients... (Landon Blake)
   3. Re: Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,  but FOSS        GIS
      clients... (Andrea Aime)
   4. Re: Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,  but FOSS GIS
      clients... (Howard Butler)
   5. Re: Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,  but FOSS        GIS
      clients... (Dr. Markus Lupp)
   6. FOSS4Geo session at the Geosciences World Congress (33rd IGC
      2008 in Oslo) (Henning Lorenz)
   7. Re: Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,  but FOSS GIS
      clients... (Jacolin Yves)
   8. RE: Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,  but FOSSGIS
      clients... (Miguel Montesinos)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:41:19 -0800
From: Paul Ramsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,   but FOSS
        GIS clients...
To: PostGIS Users Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: OSGeo Discussions <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed



I realize it ain't easy. But could consolidation
(future effort) make it easier?
The only thing that can be consolidated is developer effort, and even where there are no programming language barriers (such as in the Java world) there are lots of countervailing reasons that make mergers impractical.
"Everyone should drop their projects and work on uDig." But all the gvSIG developers are supported by funding from Spanish government that requires all the work be GPL; and they also prefer a pure Java implementation to the SWT/Eclipse implementation that uDig uses. And the OpenJUMP people have an existing rich set of editing tools that are not easily portable to the uDig application model. Are they going to throw away all their existing functionality to move to another platform? Why? OpenJUMP works fine for them.
You are thinking the developers are working for you, the user, but they aren't. They are working for themselves and their employers, and they have perfectly good reasons to keep working on what they want to work on. You, the freeloading user, are incidental to the process.
We, the developers and employers, are well aware of the strategic implications of choosing to join, or not join, a particular community, probably to a far finer degree than you, and don't worry -- we are looking after our interests. 


What's Refractions' model? Paul? Presumably
Refractions is a for-profit entity and not an ESRI
Business Partner. Refractions seems to be quite
successful with PostGIS. PostGIS seems to be the de
facto FOSS spatial database extension, with PostgreSQL
being its host. Longer lead time, I know.
Actually we have been an ESRI business partner in the past, and would not mind being so again. We do a large percentage of our revenue on projects that use ESRI, Oracle and other proprietary tools. PostGIS provides us with no direct revenue at all, nor does uDig. 

http://geotips.blogspot.com/2005/10/open-source-company-oxymoron.html



Does Refractions not implement the FOSS GIS products
they help develop for pay? Do they not, like Google
(although Google has endless capital), allow their
programmers to work, at least part-time, on FOSS GIS
products during work hours?
To a degree, but relative to our overall revenue flow, not really. The pay-back on dollars spent on OSS development is much harder to put metrics around than the payback on things like direct sales effort, or proprietary software development. 


Also, wasn't there a FOSS4G presentation about
consulting as a way to further FOSS GIS development
and make a living at it as well?
Bit of a myth, as far as I can tell. This open source technology wedge is still so small that the business opportunities remain relatively tiny, particularly in North America, where the technology base is so homogenous and the mental lock-in to a vendor-led mentality so strong. 


Is there a QGIS foundation? If not, could there be?
Should there be?
No, there's an OSGeo foundation, of which QGIS is a member, that's good enough. Once it's a 5013c, US donors will even be able to get tax receipts for their donations to QGIS development, and write off the donations. 

P



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:41:34 -0800
From: "Landon Blake" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,       but
        FOSS GIS clients...
To: "OSGeo Discussions" <[email protected]>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Well put Paul. A little harsh...but well put.

Landon

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:41 AM
To: PostGIS Users Discussion
Cc: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,but FOSS
GIS clients...



I realize it ain't easy. But could consolidation
(future effort) make it easier?
The only thing that can be consolidated is developer effort, and even where there are no programming language barriers (such as in the Java world) there are lots of countervailing reasons that make mergers impractical.
"Everyone should drop their projects and work on uDig." But all the gvSIG developers are supported by funding from Spanish government that requires all the work be GPL; and they also prefer a pure Java implementation to the SWT/Eclipse implementation that uDig uses. And the OpenJUMP people have an existing rich set of editing tools that are not easily portable to the uDig application model. Are they going to throw away all their existing functionality to move to another platform? Why? OpenJUMP works fine for them.
You are thinking the developers are working for you, the user, but they aren't. They are working for themselves and their employers, and they have perfectly good reasons to keep working on what they want to work on. You, the freeloading user, are incidental to the process.
We, the developers and employers, are well aware of the strategic implications of choosing to join, or not join, a particular community, probably to a far finer degree than you, and don't worry -- we are looking after our interests. 


What's Refractions' model? Paul? Presumably
Refractions is a for-profit entity and not an ESRI
Business Partner. Refractions seems to be quite
successful with PostGIS. PostGIS seems to be the de
facto FOSS spatial database extension, with PostgreSQL
being its host. Longer lead time, I know.
Actually we have been an ESRI business partner in the past, and would not mind being so again. We do a large percentage of our revenue on projects that use ESRI, Oracle and other proprietary tools. PostGIS provides us with no direct revenue at all, nor does uDig. 

http://geotips.blogspot.com/2005/10/open-source-company-oxymoron.html



Does Refractions not implement the FOSS GIS products
they help develop for pay? Do they not, like Google
(although Google has endless capital), allow their
programmers to work, at least part-time, on FOSS GIS
products during work hours?
To a degree, but relative to our overall revenue flow, not really. The pay-back on dollars spent on OSS development is much harder to put metrics around than the payback on things like direct sales effort, or proprietary software development. 


Also, wasn't there a FOSS4G presentation about
consulting as a way to further FOSS GIS development
and make a living at it as well?
Bit of a myth, as far as I can tell. This open source technology wedge is still so small that the business opportunities remain relatively tiny, particularly in North America, where the technology base is so homogenous and the mental lock-in to a vendor-led mentality so strong. 


Is there a QGIS foundation? If not, could there be?
Should there be?
No, there's an OSGeo foundation, of which QGIS is a member, that's good enough. Once it's a 5013c, US donors will even be able to get tax receipts for their donations to QGIS development, and write off the donations. 

P

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects 
including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the 
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you 
have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 19:33:16 +0100
From: Andrea Aime <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,  but
        FOSS    GIS clients...
To: OSGeo Discussions <[email protected]>
Cc: PostGIS Users Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Paul Ramsey ha scritto:
You are thinking the developers are working for you, the user, but they aren't. They are working for themselves and their employers, and they have perfectly good reasons to keep working on what they want to work on. You, the freeloading user, are incidental to the process.
I wouldn't be able to say it better. We open source developers do develop for the pleasure of developing in the first place. To 
"scratch an itch" they say. User come after that.
This is not to say they are irrelevant, on the contrary.
They provide feedback, useful insights, ideas, and not less
important, a good user base is good for your karma
and your pride too.
Despite that, user must first and foremost understand they are not
the driver. Pleasure in development, discovery, exploration,
sharing experiences with other developers and so on, that's
the driver.
Merging with another community? It may work, provided the fun does
not go away. If there is a split chance of turning that into a
boring work, the merger likeliness is absolutely zero.

Cheers
Andrea


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:03:50 -0600
From: Howard Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,       but
        FOSS GIS clients...
To: OSGeo Discussions <[email protected]>
Cc: PostGIS Users Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Jan 2, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Andrea Aime wrote:

Despite that, user must first and foremost understand they are not
the driver.
... unless they pony up with money and/or time. As Tim said, you are either a sink or a source. As an open source developer, I invest in you the user (in money and/or time) by providing documentation (as little as possible to optimize my time), answering your questions directly, and coding in an effort to create more sources that provide me with leverage. Everyone starts out as a sink. The project only grows by producing more sources than sinks. If you are identified as a sink with no hope of ever turning into a source, you will eventually be ignored.
If you want to have a really successful open source experience, you must aspire to being a source as quickly as possible. As a source, you will receive differentially more investment (help, code, docs, and ideas) from other project principles than if your status as a source or sink is unclear. 

Use the (and be a) source Luke!

Howard




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 09:27:56 +0800
From: "Dr. Markus Lupp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: [postgis-users] A bit off topic,       but
        FOSS    GIS clients...
To: OSGeo Discussions <[email protected]>
Cc: PostGIS Users Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Paul Ramsey schrieb:

Also, wasn't there a FOSS4G presentation about
consulting as a way to further FOSS GIS development
and make a living at it as well?
Bit of a myth, as far as I can tell. This open source technology wedge is still so small that the business opportunities remain relatively tiny, particularly in North America, where the technology base is so homogenous and the mental lock-in to a vendor-led mentality so strong.
Not a myth in Europe (or to be more precise, at least in Germany). There is a number of (growing) companies that have FOSS GIS consulting business models and do pretty well. 


Regards,

Markus



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Reply via email to