While I agree with all your points, since this is a public mailinglist, probably don't mention specific places that do illegal things, even if they're things "everyone does".
It would also be good not to mention our space's lack of occupancy permit or such issues on this public mailinglist and only discuss it at meetings. On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Justin Lacko <[email protected]> wrote: > *I'm* surprised we're bringing this all up again. > > We should take the "don't care" attitude. It's simple. > No occupancy permit? --> Don't care. > > The fact is, many places throughout the city operate on a daily basis > without an occupancy permit in varying degrees. Republic downstairs from us > have no occupancy permit, yet they are a legitimate business moving 6 > figures of dollars through their business yearly. And, they have beer in > the fridge. > cre8ery has no occupancy permit or liquor licence, yet they continue to > operate and even hold events with wine for sale. Despite public advertising > of their events, they have not been shut down by undercover visiting > inspectors (although maybe they're just lucky). > > I have already done the research into what it would take to get an > occupancy permit and frankly, it's not worth it. We also don't need it. > Let's stop caring and just fix what needs to be fixed, that makes sense to > be fixed. > > We seem to live in this constant hushed fear of being shut down, when > really we should just have the "don't care" attitude, because it's not > going to happen. The organization can officially state their intentions of > needing to keep things legit, which should be encouraged. > > When it comes down to it, don't do stupid things like run unsheathed 120V > wire through a sink, or invite passing-by fire inspectors up for an > unofficial drink. > > Let's all recognize that we're on the path to fixing open issues and > improving the space. > > > On 30 March 2013 01:16, Roswyne <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Well, those are good points. >> >> However, despite our good intentions, we've already made a lot of >> improvements that aren't officially to code. >> >> I'm surprised that running Ethernet cables is being seen as more >> important to do "by the book" than say the electronic door lock. >> >> We simply don't have the money to hire people to do everything... And so >> if we're willing to do it ourselves, we should use good judgement in >> determining how far we're willing to go to comply with a code we're already >> violating. >> On 29/03/13 10:26 PM, Roswyne wrote: >> >>> Not really. I see no reason to think we have any active intention of >>> getting an occupancy permit, so it really makes no practical difference. >>> >> >> I meant it sucks in general, not just for us. >> >> Though, it does suck a little for us even without the occupancy permit. >> On top of the slap on the wrist if were caught occupying without a permit, >> there's also the slight chance of being slapped again on the wrist if such >> events lead to unlicensed installation being a verdict. >> >> But really, all the occupancy permit gives us is the right to >>> potentially hold a dozen events per year at the space where we can >>> legally sell and consume alcohol. So what. >>> >> >> I'd put it a little more precisely, an occupancy permit gives us the >> right to occupy the unit, which is a prerequisite to obtaining liquor >> licenses. There are other benefits to having the a permit to occupy on it's >> own: >> >> * The penalty for being caught occupying without a permit may typically >> be a slap on the wrist, but with that could also come orders to make costly >> alterations at an inconvenient moment, and potentially if the process >> wasn't going well, an order to cease occupying until requirements for >> occupation are met >> >> * Lack of permit is leverage for a landlord who wants to break a lease >> in order to renegotiate, sell the property to someone else who wants to >> renegotiate, or sell the property to someone who wants to obtain the >> property minus tenants due to redevelopment plans or plans to use it for >> themselves. >> >> * Insurance companies have to be tough-ass to stay in business. (or else >> people take advantage of them) Don't count out the possibility of them >> investigating and being assholes if it suites their interest to dispute a >> claim by pointing to the lack of occupancy permit. >> >> * Uncertain liability for board members. Yes, it's hard to hold board >> members legally responsible for stuff, and occupancy perhaps are probably >> an unlikely area for that (compared to say, failure to file tax returns), >> but there certainly are circumstances where the corporate wall can be >> breached -- that's why we buy insurance covering the conduct of our board >> members. Again, don't rule out the potential of insurance companies to >> dispute a claim. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of there being clauses >> in the policy that make a distinction between board member conduct being >> unintentionally ignorant vs intentionally ignorant vs willfully in >> violation of the law. 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