I am well aware that Voice Over is part of the OS and not a separate
application similar to Jaws or Window Eyes; however, it is important that
customizations are able to be made to software that is not immediately
compatible with Voice Over. If Macintosh scripting is as powerful as you
say, then I am more impressed with Apple's accomplishments than before.
Still, if this is the case, then Apple should make a bigger deal of this, so
that people, like yours truly, do not make the incorrect assumption that
Voice Over is some how deficient by not having a scripting language.
-Joshua
----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Siegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS X by
theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: some further questions
I disagree. I do not think a scripting language for voiceover is
necessary. Voice over is not jaws. Let me repeat that. Voice over is
*NOT* jaws. Since voice is part of the os, and not something running on
top of the os, it doesn't work the same way Jaws does. Because of this,
it's fundamental operating mode is different. While it would be nice to
have hot keys to read parts of the screen, or macros to do things, it's
not necessary. You have to keep in mind that voice over is part of the
os. This gives it a *lot* more power than something just built-on to make
things talk. There is no need for a voiceover only scripting language,
because there are already several scripting options for the os itself. By
default, these languages work with voice over, because they control the os
itself. Therefore, any scripts written for the os will automatically work
with voiceover. There is no equivalent on the windows platform, though I
suppose some may try to argue that windows scriptiing is such an animal,
though I can point to plenty of reasons why this is not so. But because
of the way voiceover is integrated into the os, having a separate
scripting language would pointless, as it would simply duplicate what
apple has already provided for controling applications anyway. If you
want to write voice over scripts, learn apple script, then script to your
hearts content. Anything you write will work just fine with voiceover,
and with the apple applications as well. You can't do that with windows.
Please try to keep in mind that the approach used here is not the same as
the approach used elsewhere. The closest you can get is a linux kernel
patched with speakup, so that the os speaks from boot, since speakup is
built-in to the kernel, it works at a much lower level than does any
windows screen reader, and thus *every* terminal application is
accessable, not just those that play nice with video output routines.
This is what apple has done, only on an even lower level.
I know comparisons to windows is unavoidable, and you're more than
welcome to make them, but while doing so, try to remember how things
work, and why voiceover is what it is. Comparing voiceover and jaws is
like comparing the electric grid to solar panels. When you buy a mac,
you're getting the grid, because your house is already wired to use it.
With windows, your house needs to have power added to it, so you install
solar panels on your roof, then run wires down inside the house for
plugging in your stuff. Obviously having the house built from the start
with electric already in it is a much better options, because you know
your appliances are going to work, whereas with the solar panels, there's
no guaraantee that new stove you got will play nice with your power
output requirements, and it may not work. And of course there's still
the paralels with incompatabilities as well. Even with the electric grid
connected to your house, you still can't run a gas appliance w/o adding
something else to make it work, or an appliance requiring 240 volts
instead of 110, you need to change something to make it work. Macs are
the same way. For most things they work just fine, but sometimes you'll
need additional help. With windows, you can't even move in until the
solar panels are installed. Thereby adding to the expense and complexity
of the system.
Sorry for going off like this, but it still irks me that folks just don't
grasp the difference here. $499, and you've got a completely up to date
macintosh that will run all modern software, and the latest os version.
Try doing that with a pc/windows based machine with a screen reader on
it. I can't be done, and that's all there is to it. The entry level is
so much lower with a mac than a pc, I expect simple economics will drive
more and more folks to the mac out of necessity, never mind the ease of
use and lack of incompatabilities plaguing any pc based machine.On Dec 8,
2005, at 2:31 PM, Joshua E. Loya wrote:
I don't believe a scripting language has been implemented for Voice
Over; however, I would hope that Apple has considered this. It's all
fine and well to ask software developers to adhere to the Voice Over
Guidelines that Apple has formulated, but what if we want to use
versions of software that are not initially compatible with VO? That is
the one thing that Jaws and Window Eyes have over Voice Over. Granted,
Voice Over is still in its early stages, but something along these lines
is going to need to happen in order for more blind people to want to
make the switch to the Mac.
-Joshua
----- Original Message ----- From: "LARRY WANGER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS Xby
theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: some further questions
Curious about something else. Are there folks out there who write
scripts for programs using VO as some do with Jaws.
By the way, related to question 4 of my last post, the two external
drives are firewire so it should work from that perspective. My
concern is that while one is actually Mac based and I use MacDrive to
access it, another is windows based but I'm assuming I can still plug
this right in and it will read the FAT 32 or NTFS format, can't
remember which it is.
Check out my blog at http://lsw999.blogspot.com/
Larry Wanger
----- Original Message ----- From: "John W. Hess"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS
Xby theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: some further questions
Larry, Here are some of the answers to your questions.
1. I experienced some difficulty working in the Internet Browser,
Safari. As you know, when you load a page you are then able to move
around with the right and left arrows in combination with the control
and option keys. When I moved to the html content and hit the command
to interact with the HTML, I found I then had to move line by line
with the arrow keys. Is there a command that works to tell the Voice
Over to just read the entire page without having to enter commands.
When reading a lot of text, having to hit a key for each line gets old
and tough on the fingers.
Command-Option-a (I will referto these as voKeys) is supposed to read
the page however I find that it seems to stop every now and then. You
can try pressing vokeys-semicolan to lock the vokeys and that will at
least free up a hand from holding them down.
You might also try vokeys-shift-w to read the entire window.
2. Related to question #1, is there a command that will either allow
you to skip past all links and go to the text on a web page or, is
there a command to be able to skip a lot of links at once. For
example, in Windows with Jaws I can be on a web page and just hit page
down to get past links or to move through a page faster. Often I look
at specific pages several times a day and know that if I hit page down
twice I get to the text. This is kind of important to me as hitting
arrow keys to move link by link really stinks.
Larry, I love this command too and have [EMAIL PROTECTED]
requesting this. At the present time the best choice is using the item
chooser list which can be activated by pressing vo-i and typing the
first few letters of what you are looking for. I have also found that
going to last item by pressing vokeys-pagedown gets you closer to the
meet of the page.
3. I'm going to check out the Apple site but can someone briefly
contrast what is different between an iMac and a Mac Mini other than
the obvious things like needing a keyboard and monitor if you use a
mini? How big is the normal hard disk in a Mac Mini, things like
that?
I'll leave that to the pros on this list. They will share some of the
differences.
4. I have backed up data on two external hard disks. These files
consist of word documents, photographs belonging to my wife, music,
stuff like that. I'm assuming that the drives which are PC compatible
will just connect to the Mac and be readable?
Good question. I am going to suggest the possibility that if they are
being connected via usb port they should be recognized by the Mac.
Again, there are folks doing this who hopefully can give you a more
detailed answer.
I'm all but ready to order up a Mac but had these few last questions!
Well Larry, I am glad that you have given it a serious look and also
glad that you are making an informed decision. Keep those questions
coming. WE all want you to be happy with your Mac and know what you
can and can't expect write out of the box. Have a great day.
Sincerely:
JohnyTheHess & WillieTheWoof
