Your impression is more a result of the Microsoft snow job than lack
of apple trying. If you want to gfiind out about the real microsoft,
where do you go? the same is true for apple.
--
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
On Dec 8, 2005, at 11:24 PM, Joshua E. Loya wrote:
I am well aware that Voice Over is part of the OS and not a
separate application similar to Jaws or Window Eyes; however, it is
important that customizations are able to be made to software that is
not immediately compatible with Voice Over. If Macintosh scripting is
as powerful as you say, then I am more impressed with Apple's
accomplishments than before. Still, if this is the case, then Apple
should make a bigger deal of this, so that people, like yours truly,
do not make the incorrect assumption that Voice Over is some how
deficient by not having a scripting language.
-Joshua
----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Siegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS
X by theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: some further questions
I disagree. I do not think a scripting language for voiceover is
necessary. Voice over is not jaws. Let me repeat that. Voice
over is *NOT* jaws. Since voice is part of the os, and not
something running on top of the os, it doesn't work the same way
Jaws does. Because of this, it's fundamental operating mode is
different. While it would be nice to have hot keys to read parts
of the screen, or macros to do things, it's not necessary. You
have to keep in mind that voice over is part of the os. This
gives it a *lot* more power than something just built-on to make
things talk. There is no need for a voiceover only scripting
language, because there are already several scripting options for
the os itself. By default, these languages work with voice over,
because they control the os itself. Therefore, any scripts
written for the os will automatically work with voiceover. There
is no equivalent on the windows platform, though I suppose some
may try to argue that windows scriptiing is such an animal, though
I can point to plenty of reasons why this is not so. But because
of the way voiceover is integrated into the os, having a separate
scripting language would pointless, as it would simply duplicate
what apple has already provided for controling applications
anyway. If you want to write voice over scripts, learn apple
script, then script to your hearts content. Anything you write
will work just fine with voiceover, and with the apple
applications as well. You can't do that with windows. Please try
to keep in mind that the approach used here is not the same as the
approach used elsewhere. The closest you can get is a linux
kernel patched with speakup, so that the os speaks from boot,
since speakup is built-in to the kernel, it works at a much lower
level than does any windows screen reader, and thus *every*
terminal application is accessable, not just those that play nice
with video output routines. This is what apple has done, only on
an even lower level.
I know comparisons to windows is unavoidable, and you're more than
welcome to make them, but while doing so, try to remember how
things work, and why voiceover is what it is. Comparing voiceover
and jaws is like comparing the electric grid to solar panels.
When you buy a mac, you're getting the grid, because your house is
already wired to use it. With windows, your house needs to have
power added to it, so you install solar panels on your roof, then
run wires down inside the house for plugging in your stuff.
Obviously having the house built from the start with electric
already in it is a much better options, because you know your
appliances are going to work, whereas with the solar panels,
there's no guaraantee that new stove you got will play nice with
your power output requirements, and it may not work. And of
course there's still the paralels with incompatabilities as well.
Even with the electric grid connected to your house, you still
can't run a gas appliance w/o adding something else to make it
work, or an appliance requiring 240 volts instead of 110, you need
to change something to make it work. Macs are the same way. For
most things they work just fine, but sometimes you'll need
additional help. With windows, you can't even move in until the
solar panels are installed. Thereby adding to the expense and
complexity of the system.
Sorry for going off like this, but it still irks me that folks
just don't grasp the difference here. $499, and you've got a
completely up to date macintosh that will run all modern software,
and the latest os version. Try doing that with a pc/windows based
machine with a screen reader on it. I can't be done, and that's
all there is to it. The entry level is so much lower with a mac
than a pc, I expect simple economics will drive more and more
folks to the mac out of necessity, never mind the ease of use and
lack of incompatabilities plaguing any pc based machine.On Dec 8,
2005, at 2:31 PM, Joshua E. Loya wrote:
I don't believe a scripting language has been implemented for
Voice Over; however, I would hope that Apple has considered this.
It's all fine and well to ask software developers to adhere to
the Voice Over Guidelines that Apple has formulated, but what if
we want to use versions of software that are not initially
compatible with VO? That is the one thing that Jaws and Window
Eyes have over Voice Over. Granted, Voice Over is still in its
early stages, but something along these lines is going to need to
happen in order for more blind people to want to make the switch
to the Mac.
-Joshua
----- Original Message ----- From: "LARRY WANGER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac
OS Xby theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: some further questions
Curious about something else. Are there folks out there who
write scripts for programs using VO as some do with Jaws.
By the way, related to question 4 of my last post, the two
external drives are firewire so it should work from that
perspective. My concern is that while one is actually Mac based
and I use MacDrive to access it, another is windows based but
I'm assuming I can still plug this right in and it will read the
FAT 32 or NTFS format, can't remember which it is.
Check out my blog at http://lsw999.blogspot.com/
Larry Wanger
----- Original Message ----- From: "John W. Hess"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of
Mac OS Xby theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: some further questions
Larry, Here are some of the answers to your questions.
1. I experienced some difficulty working in the Internet
Browser, Safari. As you know, when you load a page you are then
able to move around with the right and left arrows in
combination with the control and option keys. When I moved to
the html content and hit the command to interact with the HTML,
I found I then had to move line by line with the arrow keys.
Is there a command that works to tell the Voice Over to just
read the entire page without having to enter commands. When
reading a lot of text, having to hit a key for each line gets
old and tough on the fingers.
Command-Option-a (I will referto these as voKeys) is supposed
to read the page however I find that it seems to stop every now
and then. You can try pressing vokeys-semicolan to lock the
vokeys and that will at least free up a hand from holding them
down.
You might also try vokeys-shift-w to read the entire window.
2. Related to question #1, is there a command that will either
allow you to skip past all links and go to the text on a web
page or, is there a command to be able to skip a lot of links
at once. For example, in Windows with Jaws I can be on a web
page and just hit page down to get past links or to move
through a page faster. Often I look at specific pages several
times a day and know that if I hit page down twice I get to the
text. This is kind of important to me as hitting arrow keys to
move link by link really stinks.
Larry, I love this command too and have
[EMAIL PROTECTED] requesting this. At the present
time the best choice is using the item chooser list which can
be activated by pressing vo-i and typing the first few letters
of what you are looking for. I have also found that going to
last item by pressing vokeys-pagedown gets you closer to the
meet of the page.
3. I'm going to check out the Apple site but can someone briefly
contrast what is different between an iMac and a Mac Mini other
than the obvious things like needing a keyboard and monitor if
you use a mini? How big is the normal hard disk in a Mac Mini,
things like that?
I'll leave that to the pros on this list. They will share some
of the differences.
4. I have backed up data on two external hard disks. These
files consist of word documents, photographs belonging to my
wife, music, stuff like that. I'm assuming that the drives
which are PC compatible will just connect to the Mac and be
readable?
Good question. I am going to suggest the possibility that if
they are being connected via usb port they should be recognized
by the Mac. Again, there are folks doing this who hopefully can
give you a more detailed answer.
I'm all but ready to order up a Mac but had these few last
questions!
Well Larry, I am glad that you have given it a serious look and
also glad that you are making an informed decision. Keep those
questions coming. WE all want you to be happy with your Mac and
know what you can and can't expect write out of the box. Have
a great day.
Sincerely:
JohnyTheHess & WillieTheWoof
