I have to chime in here too. I like Jaws a lot, in fact because it does change the interface. It lets the screen reader user work in a more natural way, without having to worry about how things are actually laid out on the 2d screen. Keyboard commands are more consistent across apps (may be more of a windows behavior rather than specificaly Jaws), and to top things off, Eloquence is a nice clear and very responsive synth. I'm not a huge windows or Microsoft fan either, but I do like what Jaws has evolved into. Believe me, it was terrible when it first hit the streets.
One of the greatest achievements of the Windows screen reader is the HTML virtual view (both Jaws and Window-Eyes have this concept). It really does make many web sites easier to use. Of course, there is a trade off especially when considering ajax applications, but this too has a solution. See the w3c and mozilla accessibility for more on current work to make ajax applications more accessible to users of adaptive technologies. Josh wrote: >Jaws ones in particular, have been conditioned to so heavily depend on the >screen readers functionality, that they never learn how to use their > >operating system the way it was intended, ... Hmm, I'm old enough to remember the days of DOS, before Windows. This was essentially command line, but many apps had their own windows-like feel: dialogs and full-screen editing/text processing etc. However, each program was its own little universe. Each had vastly different keyboard commands and philosophies about how these commands were grouped and laid out on the keyboard etc. Some even used the mouse, but did so in their own querky way. One of the greatest bennefits to a total GUI environment for sighted people was the fact that all interactions were abstracted to the point of triviality -- point and click. Doesn't matter what app your using, it all works the same way -- point and click. So, why can't blind folks have the same advantage. If we could have one interface to all apps that works the same across them all, and abstracts away the inconsistencies and rough edges and visually based artirfacts etc, don't you think that would be a win? Looking for opinions, comments, or anything else. Just don't throw tomatoes, ok! <smile> -- Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh de Lioncourt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS X by theblind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Hi John and all, I'm intimately familiar with JFW, WE, and VoiceOver. I've helped some others learn to use VO, I've written scripts for JFW professionally, and I'm an avid fan of Window-Eyes on the Windows side of things. Based on all of this, here are my thoughts. I think the transition from Jaws to VoiceOver is more difficult than the leap from Window-Eyes to VoiceOver. VO shares some similarities with WE in terms of basic concepts and principles. That being said, the biggest problem in making the switch is that Windows screen reader users, Jaws ones in particular, have been conditioned to so heavily depend on the screen readers functionality, that they never learn how to use their operating system the way it was intended, and to think of things from any other perspective. You have to go into Mac OSX and forget about much of what you think to be true in Windows. It's a very different system, and the screen reader is very different. VoiceOver gives you access to OSX, whereas Jaws, in addition to this, radically changes the interface between user and OS. Window-Eyes does this far less, which is one of the reasons I prefer it over JFW. As for the tab key, that works the same way in nearly all OS's I've used, so I have no idea what you're refering to with that. I use it quite effectively in OSX, though I often like moving around with the VO cursor instead. It really depends on my familiarity with the program in question or a new computer user, learning to use VO will be far easier than learning to use Jaws or WE. Learning OSX for that matter will be far easier than learning Windows. VoiceOver is still in its infancy, however. It has tremendous power, even for all that, but it does have some limitations. I would say your suspicion that your difficulty with learning VO is due to your familiarity with Jaws is dead on. There is room for improvement with VO, but then again there is with WE and JFW too. The comparison of VO to programs that have been around for a decade and more is unfair and not really applicable in any case. OSX is just a very different beast. With a little dedication and a contious attempt to avoid letting Windows knowledge influence you, you can become extremely productive in OSX, and I see this only improving over the coming years. As for the NFB...well, don't even get me started. They are out of touch with reality, and this coming from someone whose girlfriend is a member. Actually, I think NFB are out of touch with a great many of their members as well. But that's a whole other debate. All of the above are strictly my opinions, and I'm sure many will disagree. I'm confident most VO users will share my sentiments though. On Apr 13, 2007, at 7:41 AM, John Heim wrote: > Wow... I totally disagree that voiceover is easy to llearn when > compared to jaws. > > I am someone trying to make the transition from Windows to the Mac > and I think anyone who is considering doing the same should prepare > themselves for a struggle. > > I am not a windows bigot. I desperately want voiceover to succeed. > For one thing, I don't want to have to ask my employer to shell out > $1000 for another jaws license when the current one runs out. And I > can show you messages from the NFB's comp sci list where I got > into heated debates over their policy supporting jaws. I have > argued that voiceover is proof that their policy is wrong. > > However, I think voiceover is not as good as jaws. Jaws is more > intuitive and easier to use. To be fair, that opinion may be the > result of my familiarity with jaws and my lack of familiarity with > voiceover. And some of my problem with voiceover may be the result > of my unfamiliarity with the Mac operating system. I have to learn > how to use the doc as well as voiceover. > > But I recently installed orca, this is a new screen reader for > linux/gnome. And I was able to get real work done almost > immediately. The tab key did what I expected it to, etc. Again, to > be fair, gnome may be more like windows than MacOS is. Apple > probably prefers that windows and MacOS are different. The > developers of gnome might have made it windows-like on purpose. > > I remember learning to use jaws and I didn't struggle nearly as > much with it as I did with voiceover. >
