Hi THERE, I HAVE A FRIEND WHO IS BLIND AND SPENT $2,000 ON A NEW Mac plus backup hard drive and several times. They eventually received the Braille manua, and as of this date, they are claiming that they don't have the time to learn the Mac. At this point, they are disgusted with the computer. This, I think, is more their fault rather then the Mac. In my humble opinion, when you spend $2,000, you had better be willing to spend the time to learn the Mac. To me, $2,000 is serious money and for many of us, not to be taken lightly, especially when you borrow it at 24 percent compounded interest.
Well, that's enough from me for now. Chris Peppel -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Poehlman Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 6:51 AM To: General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS Xby the blind Subject: Re: Another NFB review of Mac with VO I'd say that it is much easier but I would not make a flat statement because some blind user will come up and say they cannot or could not do it. I've actually seen that happen on this list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Panarese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:25 PM Subject: Re: Another NFB review of Mac with VO `` I understand what you are saying, David. I really do. There are situations where you have to cover all bases. Nevertheless, by and large, when you are advocating for the Mac over Windows, I have found that keeping things pretty simple is most effective. IN this case, simply saying, a blind Mac user can install the OS with speech without needing a sighted person to assist them, while a blind Windows user, in most cases, cannot do the same, and if they want to do so, there is far more involved, unless you are truly technically advanced or have the aid of someone who is. Take Care John Panarese On Feb 21, 2008, at 11:14 PM, David Poehlman wrote: > I guess my point is that if we are going to make a case we need > tomake it > airtight. Actually, I don't think we need deffending but when > someone says > something, it should be deffinitive so if I were going to talk about > the Mac > os as it relates to the blind, I'd say that it has the potential to > create a > superior experience for the new computer user as well as the seasoned > computer user provided the latter is willing and able to suspend their > judgement till they've spent some time learning the new os and > environment. > By that time, it should be clear to this individual that a superior > experience is under way. > > If you are not even the least bit adventurous or are reluctant or > unable to > pick up something new and treat it as something new, your experience > will > not be as rewarding and you may even become frustrated. > > On the other hand, if you have never used a computer before and are > going to > use windows, be prepared for a long up hill climb through training and > tutorials. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Panarese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS > X by > theblind" <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:06 PM > Subject: Re: Another NFB review of Mac with VO > > > I think you are really splitting hairs here, David. The point is, > a blind person doesn't need a sighted person for the install. > > Take Care > > John Panarese > > On Feb 21, 2008, at 11:03 PM, David Poehlman wrote: > >> well, it's not always glitch free and a lot of people won't start >> anything >> Mac included without a sighted person at their elbo or in the >> driver's seat. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Panarese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS >> X by >> theblind" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 8:56 PM >> Subject: Re: Another NFB review of Mac with VO >> >> >> On top of that, how many blind Windows users actually do this? >> Let's be real here. Only the really high tech user will take this >> route. Out of the box, the Mac OS install works with speech without >> any fuss. >> >> Take Care >> >> John Panarese >> >> On Feb 21, 2008, at 10:46 PM, Jacob Schmude wrote: >> >>> Hi David >>> Yes, we can install windows independently. However, the steps >>> required to do this are out of all proportion to what they should >>> be. For a completely independent installation, we need to create an >>> unattended installation script, which is then read by the windows >>> installation program. This means that we need to either learn how to >>> create the file by hand, or already have access to a Windows PC and >>> utilize the deployment tools, setupmgr to be exact, to create one of >>> these scripts. This is not intuitive, and also doesn't provide us >>> with full flexibility. This cannot usually be done with system >>> restore disks and further, one little mistake in the answer file can >>> completely whipe your hard disk if you get the partitioning section >>> wrong. And yes, while narrator can help with the later stages of the >>> process, it cannot go from beginning to end. So yes, while it is >>> possible to install windows independently, comparing it to what we >>> can do to install OS X independently is like comparing apples and >>> oranges, no pun intended. >>> Also, while I haven't tried it, VMWare fusion has an easy way to >>> install windows that basically takes it through an automated install >>> process. So that could help if you wanted to set up windows in a >>> virtual machine. >>> >>> >>> On Feb 21, 2008, at 3:33 PM, David Poehlman wrote: >>> >>>> I don't meant to burst any bubbles here, but blind windows users >>>> are >>>> installing windows independantly, Narrator can at least help with >>>> that. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Richie Gardenhire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac >>>> OS X by >>>> theblind" <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 5:49 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Another NFB review of Mac with VO >>>> >>>> >>>> Good points, Olivia. I truly believe, however, that Microsoft, if >>>> they want to stay competitive, will have no choice but to develop a >>>> system where blind people can install the operating system on their >>>> own, even if they have to acquire one of the screenreading >>>> companies, >>>> which is not out of the realm of possibilities, unless both >>>> organizations of the blind step in and block them from doing so. >>>> After all, the more choices we have, (and it's been proven) prices >>>> are >>>> going to be competitive and more and more blind people can buy >>>> accessible computers, i.e. Windows-based, off the shelf, at the >>>> same >>>> price just as they pay the same price for a Mac sighted persons do. >>>> Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>> On Feb 21, 2008, at 1:02 PM, Bruins Fan wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just wanted to add my agreement to all that's been said here. >>>>> Microcrap talks a great line about being committed to >>>>> accessibility, >>>>> but they don't have a functioning screen reader built into their >>>>> system the way apple does. >>>>> Of course the switch from windows to mac is a learning curve, but >>>>> it's worth it. >>>>> I personally think that voiceover is on par with jaws for most >>>>> things, and this is only the second release. Jaws is on what? >>>>> Version eight? >>>>> Microcrap needs to take a lesson in accessibility from apple and >>>>> start building a screen reader which is actually usable into their >>>>> operating systems. >>>>> Olivia >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 21, 2008, at 2:46 PM, Justin Harford wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello >>>>>> >>>>>> The review says that it will not be a painless switch for blind >>>>>> people who want to change over from windows to the mac. This is >>>>>> true and it will never be easy for any blind windows user to >>>>>> change >>>>>> over because the scope of their awareness does not stray beyond >>>>>> windows. it's also true because there will always be a learning >>>>>> curve. It wasn't easy for me to switch because there were >>>>>> concepts >>>>>> that weren't intuitive coming from win. But it was all worth it >>>>>> of >>>>>> course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bottom line is that os x and win are not the same an I will >>>>>> appreciate that it stays that way. >>>>>> Justin Harford >>>>>> >>>>>> No good deed goes unpunished >>>>>> Wicked Witch of the West >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 21, 2008, at 9:51 AM, John Moore wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree about Apple, especially since MicroCrap has never cared >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> third-party companies have had to script things all the time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2/21/08, Edward alonzo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>>>> Hey all. I did a podcast on just that. how wonderful it was >>>>>>>> just to >>>>>>>> open the mac box, and be able to set it up unasisted. >>>>>>>> I didn't have a single problem with it at all. >>>>>>>> I know that it's not perfect, but, I do think that apple as a >>>>>>>> hole, >>>>>>>> is trying there best to get things right in the accessibility >>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>> Especially sense it's only been out for 2 years. >>>>>>>> Neither of the leading windows screenreaders were much in there >>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>> 2 years either. >>>>>>>> Pluss you've got to install them and a lot of new computer >>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> know the first thing about installing an aplication. >>>>>>>> Just some thoughts. >>>>>>>> Edd >>>>>>>> On Feb 21, 2008, at 7:39 AM, Jacob Schmude wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>> Definitely less than fair and, while they do make some >>>>>>>>> positive >>>>>>>>> comments, I still can't help but feel this was an attempt to >>>>>>>>> put >>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>> someone from taking a look at VO. It's very short, saying how >>>>>>>>> illogical VO's navigation keys are (which I personally beg to >>>>>>>>> differ), and saying we won't be able to use the Mac out of the >>>>>>>>> box >>>>>>>>> in a straight forward way. Sounds to me like these people just >>>>>>>>> couldn't step back from their windows expectations and take a >>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>> look... either that or didn't want to. Not that I expected >>>>>>>>> anything >>>>>>>>> else from NFB anyway. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Later >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Feb 21, 2008, at 2:24 AM, Cara Quinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hey All, I found this while searching on something totally >>>>>>>>>> unrelated, so had a read and thought you all might like to >>>>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>> I think it's less than fair, however, it's definitely not as >>>>>>>>>> offensive as I was expecting! lol! Not to mention the fact >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> the authors also mention Mac in a non-negative light as well, >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> their last blog posting. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The below is from: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Access_Technology_Blog.asp?SnID=2 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Enjoy and have a lovely evening!. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Smiles, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cara :) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver in Leopard >>>>>>>>>> 12/6/2007 >>>>>>>>>> With the recent release of Mac OS Leopard we decided to >>>>>>>>>> take a >>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>> at the Universal Access features that come built into the OS >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> see how they compare to the screen access solutions offered >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> Windows. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver, the screen access software offered by Apple, can >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> launched at any time by pressing COMMAND+F5. The first time >>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver is run the user is presented with a tutorial >>>>>>>>>> designed >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> orient them to the Mac and the features and functionality of >>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver. Unfortunately it took extensive searching to >>>>>>>>>> locate a >>>>>>>>>> similar tutorial that could be run on demand. The ability to >>>>>>>>>> locate >>>>>>>>>> training material is critical to a new user's ability to >>>>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> become accustomed to a new software package, especially >>>>>>>>>> considering >>>>>>>>>> the learning curve most Windows users are likely to encounter >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> using VoiceOver. We were eventually able to locate the >>>>>>>>>> tutorial >>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> going to the VoiceOver menu (CTRL+OPTION+F7), navigating to >>>>>>>>>> Help, >>>>>>>>>> and then activating the VoiceOver Quick Start option. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Screen navigation in VoiceOver is much more complex than >>>>>>>>>> navigating >>>>>>>>>> with most screen access software on the Windows platform. >>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>> approach to screen content organization involves grouping the >>>>>>>>>> screen into "Content Areas". A Content Area can be any >>>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>>> as a list view, a group of icons, or a text box. To orient >>>>>>>>>> oneself >>>>>>>>>> to the screen the user moves around the different Content >>>>>>>>>> Areas >>>>>>>>>> with the VoiceOver navigation commands (CTRL+OPTION+ARROW >>>>>>>>>> KEYS). >>>>>>>>>> Once you find a Content Area you wish to work with you have >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> "Interact" with it by giving that area focus. This is >>>>>>>>>> accomplished >>>>>>>>>> by using the command CTRL+OPTION++SHIFT+DOWN ARROW. To return >>>>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>>>>> to the previous content area the CTRL+OPTION+SHIFT+UP ARROW >>>>>>>>>> command >>>>>>>>>> is used. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Menu navigation is similarly complex. To access the menu bar >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> use the command CTRL+OPTION+M. Repeated use of this command >>>>>>>>>> cycles >>>>>>>>>> the user between the menu bar, the status area, and the >>>>>>>>>> Spotlight >>>>>>>>>> (the built in search function). There is no way to access a >>>>>>>>>> commonly used menu, such as the View menu, without navigating >>>>>>>>>> through the names of all menus displayed before it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, the command structure for VoiceOver is neither >>>>>>>>>> intuitive nor simple to learn. With commands requiring 3 to 4 >>>>>>>>>> keystrokes to accomplish it will take even the experienced >>>>>>>>>> computer >>>>>>>>>> user some time to become comfortable with the interface. The >>>>>>>>>> command to access the Mac's desktop, for example, is CTRL >>>>>>>>>> +OPTION >>>>>>>>>> +COMMAND+D. Similarly the process for selecting a menu item, >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> described in Apple's documentation, is to navigate to that >>>>>>>>>> item >>>>>>>>>> with the same navigation commands used to select a Content >>>>>>>>>> area >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> press CTRL+OPTION+SPACE. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Apple has made progress toward accessibility for the blind. >>>>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>>>> should be commended on their efforts in making the >>>>>>>>>> installation >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> set up of Braille displays as easy as possible. Many displays >>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> be plugged into the Mac and are immediately recognized >>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> need to install drivers or reinstall the screen access >>>>>>>>>> software. >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, without a redesign of the command structure >>>>>>>>>> and a >>>>>>>>>> more logical method of screen navigation, using a Mac >>>>>>>>>> straight >>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>> of the box will not be as painless for the blind as it is for >>>>>>>>>> sighted users. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Tony Olivero >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 12/6/2007 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> View my Online Portfolio at: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> John Moore >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >
