Re: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes.

[Fonzie]

Hello all, and Chris, how are you doing?

I hope all is well.
Okay Chris, let's see if this will help you out.

firstly, I can vouch for not having an issue with ever editing  
documents, or edit boxes.  I only switched to a mac in August, and I  
never had any issues in dealing with cursors itself.

I will try and explain this as best I can.

From here on out, I would like you to open a text edit document, and  
do the following.

Type out, Hello how are you doing?

Okay, now I would like you to do the following...
After you type out that particular sentence, please hold command, and  
hit left arrow to wrap back to the beginning of your sentence.  Now,  
release, and follow my explanation.

Now, your cursor is sitting directly at the beginning of your  
sentence.  So, you cursor will be sitting in front of your letter H in  
the word Hello.  So, from now on, when thinking of whre you move your  
cursor, you will be working either ahead, or behind the document.  For  
easier purposes, you will be working to the right of your document,  
should you move your cursor forward, or to the left, if you move your  
cursor to the left.

Now, let's do the following.  We are only going to work with the word  
Hello, and nothing more.  This will give you good practice, and you  
will hopefully see that this is not a bug at all.

Try moving your cursor quickly to the right and left of the characters  
in Hello.  If you move quickly to the right, past the letters H E L L  
O, you will hear each letter in individual succession, letting you  
know that you passed that current letter, now, quickly hit your left  
arrow, and your cursor will now start letting you know what you are  
passing over on the left.  So, we first moved are cursor to the right,  
in which it announced H E L L O, now as soon as we move to the left,  
you will hear O L L E H, indicating, you are passing over these  
particular letters.

This is what you will have to get used to while editing on the mac.

So, now let's practice editing work.  Let's try changing the word  
Hello into a name.

Let's use, Helen for our example.  When you get done with this  
sentence, it will read, Helen how are you doing? The former sentence  
was, Hello how are you doing?

So, remember, we are at the most left of the document, indicating that  
your cursor is now to the left of the letter H.

Now, let's get down to editing the word Hello.  Firstly, let's  
describe what happends as you actually move the cursor.  Press your  
right arrow once and you will hear H again, if you press it left once  
more, you will hear H again.  The reason for this is because, you are  
telling the cursor, to be positioned to the left or right of a  
character respectively.

This is so that, you know where you are heading into your current  
document, and where the cursor will be traveling too.  Should you  
press right, the cursor will always be right after the current  
character being heard, should you press left, the cursor will be  
positioned to the left of the character being spoken.  So, when you  
heard H when you pressed your right arrow, your cursor was put in  
front of the letter H, and VO said H, thus, when putting your cursor  
left, by itting the left arrow, you heard H again, siply because your  
cursor was being put before H, and you are still on the letter H.


Furthermore, if you just continued tapping right arrow, you would have  
heard the individual letters being spoken, while keeping in mind that  
every time you move right, the cursor is being put after the character  
being spoken, and works the same if you press the left arrow.  So, if  
you pause for any instance, at any particular letter, and press left  
once, and or right once, you will still hear the same letter being  
spoken to you.  This is the same as I have spoken above.

So, now let's edit Hello to Helen.  Press left arrow, to make sure you  
are at the beginning of the word Hello, or until you hear H.  Now,  
immediately press right arrow, until you hear O.  Delete until you  
hear O, L, and simply replace with E, N.  There, we did it.

So, if your doing any editing work at all, remember, that you are  
pressing the right arrow to be placed ahead of a character, where as  
left places you behind thecharacter.

I hope this helps.

Remember, this is not a user bug at all, and the way this was designed  
truely works the way it should be working.


On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:16 PM, Scott Howell wrote:

David, your correct, but what we need to explain is that in fact  
this is because VO is different than windows-based screen readers. I  
agree this is a bit tricky to get used to initially, but you will  
get the hang of it. I don't know how to explain this so it makes  
sense, but if you come up to a word, you hear the first letter, if  
you back up with the left arrow, you will be just to the right of  
the character. You will hear it seemingly speak double characters,  
but it's how the cursor moves and not a VO bug. Someone with much  
greater literary skills can probably make this easier to understand,  
but trust me, it's something you get used to and it'll make sense.

On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:19 PM, David Poehlman wrote:

this is a user issue.  It is not a bug.  My suggestion is practice.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Gilland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <discuss@macvisionaries.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:09 PM
Subject: Fw: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes.


I sent this to Apple Accessibility.

Do any of yall have any thoughts?

Chris.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Gilland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:04 PM
Subject: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes.


I am a voiceover user using Leopard 10.5.5.

I have noticed this issue as far back as the first release of Tiger.

Basically, it's gonna be hard for me to type out what is  
happening, being
this is more an auditory based thing, so try to stick with me on  
this.  I
really hope I don't confuse you all.

OK, I have a document up, o... let's just say, in, o? I dunno.   
Text Edit,
we'll just say for sakes being.

OK, I have typed the following line of text in a new, blank text  
document.
Please pay extremely close attention to how I've typed this both
gramatically, and also spelling:

The colors of tHe flag r red. white. and blUe?

Boy, this sentence is r'r'r'really! messed up!

Let's edit it.

OK, I go to the beginning of that line with command+left arrow.

I hear the word, The.

OK, so now I move word by word, with option right arrow.

The
colors
of
tHe

Whoops?  We gotta booboo here.  OK, so, I hit right arrow.

I hear space.  UM?  OK?

I hit left arrow.  I hear again:  Space.  What in the heck?

I hit left arrow again.  I hear E.  aa, K.  now we're getting  
there.  I
left arrow again.  I hear cap H.  There we go.  I need to delete  
this and
put a lower case h, instead of capital.  So I hit the delete key,  
then
type lower case h.

Now, if I read the current line with vo+L, I hear:

hhe colors of tHe flag r red. white. and blUe?

What? in the world?  Why did it do? that!

I called a friend for help, and what he told me is the following.   
I've
pasted his response below:


Wo wo wol Chris!  Hold on here.  Wol!  Ur'r'r'rk?

Um?  You're kind a failing to see something here:  You're thinking  
Windows
again.  Stop doing that.  Voiceover, thank God, doesn't work like  
JAWS.
You can't edit that way.  The thing is, Chris, as you left and right
arrow, you know how in Windows, your insertion point is gonna be  
right on
the actual character that it speaks?  Well, un? fortunately, in  
Voiceover,
it's not quite that simple.  In VO, it is actually reading to you  
the
character that your insertion point passes over, rather than the way
Windows does it, with jfw, by reading the character you're sitting  
on.

This is why when you hit the left arrow then delete, it did what  
it did.

Let's say, Chris, that you type the word Hello, but instead of h,  
e, l, l,
o, you did:  h, e, k, k, o.  Hekko?  What the hell kind a word is  
that!

So, you wanna get rid of those two k's, and replace them with  
l's.  Right?
OK, What I'd! do, Chris, is I would option right arrow, until I hear
Hekko. Now remember, Chris, you're not on the word Hekko.  Because  
you
were working to the right in the document, where are you really?   
cor,
rect!  You're to the right! of the word hekko.  That is definitely  
not
where we wanna be, is it?  So hit option left arrow one time.   
You'll hear
again:  Hekko.  Can you explain to me Chris, why that is?  The  
reason's,
because now, you moved to the left! of the word Hekko.  See...  
you're not
on the word actually. That's where you're getting confused.  On  
the Mac,
unlike in Windows, there is! no such thing, as being quote,  
unquote, on! a
character/word.  You have to be on either trailing side of it, and
depending on whether you've done left arrow, or right arrow, will
determine which side you're on.  OK, so now.  We're to the left of  
the
word Hekko.  hit you're right arrow.  You'll hear cap H.  however,  
watch
this.  read your current character with vo+C. Did you see what it  
did?  It
said E.  It didn't say H did it.  ok, now hit left arrow.  What  
did you
hear?  You heard E again didn't you.  Now, hit vo C.  Notice it  
said H?
See?  it's telling you what your cursor passed over! not! what it's
actually on.  so hit right arrow once.  You heard E. Actually  
though, it
passed the letter e, and since you're working to the right, it now  
is
sitting on the right side of the letter E.  So I betcha, if you  
now hit vo
C, it'll say K.  See that?  You're now actually sitting on the first
letter K in Hekko.  So, hit your delete key twice.  now, type ll.

Now read the current line with vo+L.

Hello

See?  Mission accomplished!


End of response from my friend.


God! blessid!  That confused me.  I don't totally get what he's  
saying
about it passing over things etc.  That's driving me to drinking,  
as I
can't hardly edit a document this way.

Is there any way to think about this differently, or at least,  
maybe a way
in a future update, maybe under navigation in the vo utility, yall  
could
make a checkbox, to make it behave more like Windows and speak  
what it's
actually under instead of what it passes?  God.  I'm sure I'm not  
the
first newly migrating user from Windows to a Mac, who's ran into  
this.  I
dono if it's a bug, that yall didn't really fix, as most people  
don't
really seem to care, they just deal with it, or if you all  
purposefully
made it this way, but no offense.  In all do respect though guys,  
this! is
outstandingly disgusting!

Ewww!  Yoyk!  You can imagine for people who have to work in other
languages that don't use the standard lattin based alphebet, you can
imagine for someone like that, how Godly hard this would be to edit.

Say in Arabic, you're wanting to type Allah.

Yes, you could do:  A, l, l, A, h.  but what if you're really typing
arabic.

Alif, lam, lam, heh.

now that is Not! gonna read with vo if you use the actual Arabic  
letters,
so, editting that? being you don't know what you're literally, on,  
as it's
passing things, not reporting what you're sitting on?  Now you got
yourself a double! challenge.  Trying first to figure out what  
characters
you got, and B, figuring out where your cursor really truely is  
sitting,
not what it's passed over.

just, ya know:

Be aware of this.  It is something that I really think you all may  
wanna
consider looking into as it's so confusing to me, it's almost  
making me
scared of Leopard, and really wanna use it less and less.  It just  
cfeels
so awquard!  Any suggestions?

Chris.






Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]