On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 10:02:18 AM -0400, Wm Stewart 
([email protected]) wrote:
> 
> On 10/16/2010 9:36 AM, M. Fioretti wrote:
> >On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 08:53:13 AM -0400, Wm Stewart
> >([email protected]) wrote:
> >
> >>OpenOffice could be the world standard very quickly if it solved
> >>what users say is the number one barrier to widespread adoption.
> >>Slides 26 and 30 of this presentation show that the feature OO users
> >>*themselves* most need is complete compatibility with MS formats:
> >
> >this is impossible BY DEFINITION. And it has been already explained
> >many many times. You CANNOT achieve and maintain 100% compatibility
> >with a format that YOUR competitor can change at whim every time
> >you're over 95% compatibility. Period.
> >
> 
> Marco, stand back and look at the big picture.

Bill, please stand back and look again at what I actually wrote,
pasted here for convenience:

> The only way to achieve and maintain sufficient compatibility is to
> get rid of the very concept that MS formats must continue to be
> tolerated for NEW documents: demand law and regulations that mandate
> OpenDocument as the only acceptable interchange and long storage
> format of all public documents and the problem will solve itself

I said NEW documents. Not already existing ones. And I meant NEW, and
new only, even in the last line above, which should read:

> format of all new public documents and the problem will solve itself

Sorry if I forgot to repeat "new" in that line, however this is what
my proposal is and remains.

Using OOXML (which is NOT today's docx!) as the preferred STORAGE
format to preserve already existing files is one thing. I have already
said several times that, limited to that usage, OOXML is the least
evil.

Tolerating OOXML or .docx for interchange and storage, that is
archival, of NEW files is an entirely different issue. That would be
really stupid.

Apart from, or in addition to this: 100% total compatibility as in
100% visual fidelity etc... on **editable formats** for every possible
document is achievable only if everybody uses the same version of the
same program with the same fonts, macros, multimedia plugins and so
on.

For the record, at the last OOoCon there was a Microsoft engineer that
explained this very well. His slideshow is on the OOocon website:
http://www.ooocon.org/index.php/ooocon/2010/paper/view/175

> Here is the decision
> that must be made:
> 
> 1. Do we wish to achieve compatibility with the existing MS
> formats, through docx

No. More exactly, I say: if/when that happens, great. But it is much,
much more important to improve interoperability with other office
suites (not just MS office) on OpenDocument files.

> 2. Or do you wish to continue to ask the world to throw out all of
> their existing billions of documents and software, which is not
> possible as the past few years shows - and continue to lose?

The best way to lose is to keep running after a target that changes
just to keep you running. Fighting forever respecting unfair rules
(=the file formats) against somebody who decides those rules alone
makes much less sense than demanding a new game with new rules.

If you didn't understand this from my first message, I don't know how
to explain it simpler, so OK but we can and should stop here.

This said, please remember again that I spoke of new files. In other
words, change laws and regulations in governments so that:

- from now on, whenever a government archives a NEW public document or
  anybody sends to any government office a NEW document, that document
  can only be in the OpenDocument format. Not OOXML, not .docx. How
  the author complies with this requirement is nobody's business, its
  his responsibility. Ditto for the documents they keep for their
  internal use only.

> the point of users, and the point of the regular folks on the Fark
> thread I referenced, is that it is the last 2% that is the key to
> widespread adoption.

My point remains that such users and regular folks simply don't get
some basic truths and are fighting a battle that a) can't be won by
definition, b) isn't even really worth fighting. See above and the
link I provided in my earlier message.

Do you care more about the software you use, or about the documents
you create and manage with it? Microsoft never fought Linux and
OpenOffice with the same intensity which with they fought
OpenDocument. If this isn't enough to prove to you where their real
weakness (that is the best way to accomplish your goal, "making OO the
standard"), OK.

Now, the real reason why we're discussing now is that we have two
different objectives. You want OOo to be the standard. I want
OpenDocument to be the standard, because file formats are much more
important than software programs and we use software because we need
documents, not the other way around. But we do have different
objectives, maybe it's better to just acknowledge that, isn't it?

Marco

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