On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 09:59:34 Justin Herman wrote: > I trust ALL of our members. I trust them so much I sublet space.
Not everyone who comes to the space is a member. There is no limitation on non-members being able to hack at our servers, other than "Be Excellent to Each Other". There are non-members who have root access on synhak.org, kevlar, the kiosk, and more. > > A used server would cost us under $500 and could have a lifetime of over 2 > years! If we upgrade the ISP we also have the option to increase bandwidth. /me puts on treasurer hat That sounds incredible! Since I would be allocating the funds for the maintenance of that over the next three years, could you show me a cost- benefit analysis of paying $500 for some used hardware and upgrading our ISP? Please include: * Hardware failure statistics over a five year period * A complete risk analysis of the downtime of various ISP options * A report that can show running our own server in the basement would not in any way interfere or be interfered with a user downloading a few hundred GB of ISOs during peak activity times (both in-space and on the site) * A statement of the kind of effort we'd need to migrate our current AWS infrastructure to fit into a single machine with the same reliability? These are important questions that could impact our membership numbers and thus revenue. If people aren't happy with our quality of service, they would have no incentive to continue paying dues or donate. /me takes off hat > > I am not suggesting a service will give us ALL of what we use but I know > that we could get some services pulled off. > > Purchasing from a NON-FOSS as a risk I see as minimal. We can still use > open source technology of other purposes but simply offloading some work. > In fact I think it could HELP us manage the system as more members and > non-members could participate, instead of having to learn the wiki > formatting. It also solves the issue of the wiki attachments. What do you mean by "us manage the system"? Who is "us"? Is someone else making contributions to synhak.org infrastructure that I don't know about? That'd be pretty neat! Also broken security! > > There are Co-los in Akron and surrounding areas so drive is minimal at > best. And they may be willing to host a 501c3 for charity. A minimal drive would be not even getting out of bed if things are on fire in both a literal and metaphorical sense. > > I am suggesting we maintain spiff but offload other features. If AWS is the > best place for it then keep it there. But since it is fewer services there > are less machines that need to run and less cost. I'm pretty sure my whole argument has been "AWS is the best place for it". Is that somehow unclear? If you'd rather that I take time away from hacking on spiff so I can quickly and efficiently collect our dues and keep everyone up to date on their membership status in favor of producing a technical report that shows exactly why we are sticking with AWS, thats cool with me too. > > > If I am correct you are saying NO other method is possible and I find that > extremely unlikely, I am suggesting we discuss it in a working group and > talk about our options. Weigh Pros/Cons. Explore options. I feel it is > extremely unwise not to evaluate a few options with clear minds, before > moving forward with a longer subscription. Should I send you my resume to prove that I do in fact know what I'm talking about? Is there some way to convince you that I'm a professional devops hacker and system administrator who would appreciate logical arguments for the completely nutty suggestion that we move all of our infrastructure to another hosting provider with no real gain? Is there something that can be done so that you don't feel the need to question everything I say as though I'm acting with malicious intent or a lack of foresight and planning? Do you *really* want to try to micromanage SYNHAK? Thats a road nobody should think about going down. Hackers don't like to be micromanaged. It ends up getting pretty ugly. > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:37 AM, Torrie Fischer <[email protected]>wrote: > > On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 09:12:09 Justin Herman wrote: > > > We have more options now than we did when the system was designed. I > > > > think > > > > > we need to be talking about IF this is the best option for us. > > > > > > IDEAS: > > > *Instead of spending more $ on AWS we could host it ourselves and use > > > the > > > AWS $ for an ISP with an SLA. > > > > You trust the physical security of a server around a group of hackers, > > many of > > which you've never met before? > > > > > *Contact other hosting & VPS providers for discounts for 501c3. > > > > I'd be pretty impressed if you could find an organization that will give > > us a > > 501c3 discount for the services that we use. > > > > > *Co-Lo at another location. > > > > I'm not in favor of paying anything for the upkeep of physical hardware > > that > > will eventually die in a glorious fire of "ahhh shit we need more money to > > buy > > replacements" in addition to the resources and time it would take to > > physically drive to the facility. > > > > > *Use alternative services like groupspaces --- > > > http://groupspaces.com/SynHakThey offer a service that can handle our > > > Email, Membership listing, > > > Wiki/Website, Membership Private area, File Hosting, Event Announcement, > > > and Payment scheduling. (this would not help with spiff but would allow > > > > us > > > > > to offload many critical pieces) > > > > I do not trust non-FOSS software to run our organization, as it limits the > > openness for contributions to running a hackerspace. I will fiercely fight > > against any non-FOSS alternative. > > > > > I am not suggesting throwing out Spiff with the bath water but simply > > > stating maybe its time we reevaluate the design INSTEAD of throwing $ at > > > > a > > > > > project without evaluating other options. > > > > I'm always looking for feedback on Spiff's design. Actually, I've asked > > for > > help many times on discuss@ but nobody seems to want to give input. > > > > Are you implying that this money would go towards Spiff in some way? That > > is > > not at all what I'm trying to communicate. > > > > > I would like to setup a Working Group to discuss the needs and evaluate > > > > the > > > > > options. Would anyone else be interested in doing this also and if so > > > > when? > > > > I pretty much explained our needs in my email. > > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:10 AM, Andrew Buczko > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > What is AWS ? (Akron Waffle Supply) > > > > > > > > * here is our current infrastructure: > > > > > > > > ** Two t1.micro servers as web servers > > > > ** One t1.micro server as mail host > > > > ** One t1.micro MySQL RDS instance > > > > > > > > *** current AWS bill: $81,88 /mo > > > > > > > > > > > > *Here is the new infrastucture: > > > > > > > > ** 3 year heavy reservations for two t1.micro EC2 instances @ $200 > > > > ** 1 year heavy reservation for one m1.small EC2 instance @ $169 > > > > ** 3 year heavy reservation for one m1.small EC2 instance @ $257 > > > > ** 3 year heavy reservation for one m1.small MySQL RDS instance @ > > > > $257.00 > > > > > > *** Total upfront cost: $883.00 > > > > *** Estimated monthly cost to run synhak.org: $83.52 > > > > > > > > This sounds great. > > > > > > > > 1> Um, according to your figures, the new infrastructure will cost > > > > $1.64 > > > > > > more per month than the old one, Where do you get a savings of > > > > $123.10? > > > > > > > > 2> Is it what we need? What do the logs show as far as load's on the > > > > current servers? > > > > > > > > 3> Can we get smaller servers and save even more money? > > > > > > > > This is an operating expense and does not fall under the grant that we > > > > just got. > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 5:05 PM, Torrie Fischer > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >> On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:38:58 Justin Herman wrote: > > > >> > I think an evaluation of several hosting options and establishing > > > > the > > > > > >> > infrastructure needs be done, before we earmark funds and make any > > > > plan > > > > > >> > changes. > > > >> > > > >> I didn't say any funds were being earmarked. I'm not evaluating other > > > >> hosting > > > >> options because I'm the one doing the work and would very much rather > > > > not > > > > > >> migrate synhak.org to another provider when I've already poured a > > > >> significant > > > >> quantity of effort and time into the current setup. > > > >> > > > >> > I am concerned with how much horse power & cost has been amassed > > > > even > > > > > >> after > > > >> > > > >> > we have achieved a 501c3 status. > > > >> > > > >> Please elaborate. > > > >> > > > >> > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Torrie Fischer > > > >> > > > > >> > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >> > > Hi, all. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Something I've wanted to do for quite some time is invest in some > > > >> > > > >> reserved > > > >> > > > >> > > AWS > > > >> > > instances for synhak.org to reduce our monthly bill. The problem > > > > with > > > > > >> > > that is > > > >> > > paying the high up-front cost. Since we now have this $15k grant, > > > > I'd > > > > > >> like > > > >> > > > >> > > to > > > >> > > use a small portion of it to build what I consider an ideal > > > >> > > > >> synhak.org > > > >> > > > >> > > infrastructure: > > > >> > > > > > >> > > * 3 year heavy reservations for two t1.micro EC2 instances @ $200 > > > >> > > * 1 year heavy reservation for one m1.small EC2 instance @ $169 > > > >> > > * 3 year heavy reservation for one m1.small EC2 instance @ $257 > > > >> > > * 3 year heavy reservation for one m1.small MySQL RDS instance @ > > > >> > > > >> $257.00 > > > >> > > > >> > > Total upfront cost: $883.00 > > > >> > > Estimated monthly cost to run synhak.org: $83.52 > > > >> > > Estimated cost without reservations: $206.62 > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Monthly savings: $123.10 > > > >> > > Yearly savings: $1447.20 > > > >> > > > > > >> > > One year commitment: $1002.24, approximately 14% of our 2013 > > > >> > > > >> membership > > > >> > > > >> > > dues > > > >> > > income. > > > >> > > Three year commitment: $3006.72, approximately 8% of projected > > > > three > > > > > >> year > > > >> > > > >> > > income of $36,000. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Our member dues already handily cover all our other bills. > > > > > >> > > Here's my sources on the AWS calculator: > > http://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/index.html#r=IAD&key=calc-E7EBCA4F-D17 > > > > > >> 1 > > > >> > > > >> > > -416F-AB21-D1CFE82DE07B > > > >> > > > > > >> > > The two micros will be used as edge webservers to host the wiki > > > > and > > > > > >> spiff. > > > >> > > > >> > > The one year small will be a general purpose shell, phong, > > > > logging, > > > > > >> and > > > >> > > > >> > > event > > > >> > > processing server > > > >> > > The three year small will be a dedicated mailing list server > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I'm suggesting a one year reservation to avoid getting ourselves > > > >> > > > >> locked > > > >> > > > >> > > into a > > > >> > > situation of needing more horsepower for administrivia but not > > > > able > > > > > >> > > to > > > >> > > spend > > > >> > > more than $85/mo. I don't envision our mailing list server > > > >> > > > >> requirements > > > >> > > > >> > > growing beyond an m1.small instance within the next three years, > > > >> > > > >> provided > > > >> > > > >> > > it > > > >> > > remains dedicated to just mail. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Our current AWS bill is $81.88/mo due to free tier expiring a few > > > >> > > > >> months > > > >> > > > >> > > ago. > > > >> > > This investment will keep our monthly infrastructure bill roughly > > > > the > > > > > >> same > > > >> > > > >> > > while at the same time giving us a *lot* more room to grow for > > > > that > > > > > >> same > > > >> > > > >> > > price. For comparison, here is our current infrastructure: > > > >> > > > > > >> > > * Two t1.micro servers as web servers > > > >> > > * One t1.micro server as mail host > > > >> > > * One t1.micro MySQL RDS instance > > > >> > > > > > >> > > The following benefits will be realized with this $883 > > > >> > > investment: > > > >> > > > > > >> > > * Faster performance on mediawiki, spiff, and other applications > > > >> > > * Less resource contention when mailman, postfix, phong, and > > > > document > > > > > >> > > rebuilding aren't all competing for the same pittance of CPU and > > > >> > > > >> memory > > > >> > > > >> > > * Tighter security by establishing a bastion host setup resulting > > > > in > > > > > >> > > exactly > > > >> > > two public endpoints for synhak.org > > > >> > > * Room for growth in website activity and services offered > > > >> > > * Significant cost reduction in critical infrastructure will be > > > >> > > > >> secured > > > >> > > > >> > > for > > > >> > > three years > > > >> > > * We would have a really cool playground for devops hackers > > > >> > > * Current $80/mo AWS budget could be reallocated towards the > > > >> > > > >> maintenance > > > >> > > > >> > > budget or funneled into a monthly Hacker Grant program. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I would appreciate any feedback on this idea. > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > > >> > > Discuss mailing list > > > >> > > [email protected] > > > >> > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Discuss mailing list > > > >> [email protected] > > > >> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Discuss mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Discuss mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected] https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
