A couple things: First and foremost as the current keeper-of-red-tape there was(or should have been) an emergency contact section on the 2nd page membership application( if not please fill this out http://static.synhak.org/documents/bizops/contact-form.pdf) . Also I will double check when I have the free time but a liability waiver should be on file for all members, as well as non-members who wish to use tools that require power or emit high(+100F) temperatures.
Admittedly I've only read the summary so if it's worded different in the link I apologize for my laziness. I know most of our membership is strapped for cash, but in my opinion a 67% discount on membership(even for students as currently written) is extraordinarily high. Our low income discount is only 29%. Normally I'm not one to argue for higher membership rates but it doesn't make sense for two peoples dues to be less than one persons dues. @ Robert I understand how this comes off as an attack on you and your son. I don't think it was meant to be and your input on how to solve the issues brought up is encouraged. Prior to your son there had been no serious interest by any minor in joining SynHak. All of our guidelines, rules, and codifications were designed around legal(responsible) adults. That said I fully understand how it doesn't make sense from your perspective for people to say: "congratulations, you're a member" and then retroactively change the rules. Like you said, he's not autonomous: a parent will be with him whenever he's at SynHak so people don't have to worry about babysitting him. Regarding keys and beaurcarcy: Membership does allow you to apply for a key however it does not guarantee a key. Not every member has a key, and any member may block another members application for a key. Membership and keys are also non-transferable. Any member in good standing may run for board, and officer positions. There are currently no rules on age. As these positions, on occasion, are required to preform various legally binding activities there should be discussion about what if any age restriction we put on these positions. Please understand that while your son is currently the youngest and only person these rules would apply to, these are not rules specifically for -your- son. Our membership is open to all, we avoid having rules using 'be excellent to each other' as our guiding star for most decisions. By not having tomes of rules we sometimes find ourselves forming rules after the fact. This reactionary form of rule making isn't the best but it limits the rules we need to operate by. Our utilization of consensus and public discussion also allows for the best solution to the problem to be found. This path is not always quick but the final product is good. In the future we may have younger members who are autonomous. While 18 is an arbitrary age and we all know children who are more mature than some adults. Unfortunately it is the arbitrary age that every law in this country is designed around. Our insurance requires us to have liability waivers and for minors to have legal guardian signatures. So while some of this may seem like personal attacks on your son's character realize we are trying to design the most concise set of rules to apply to the largest group possible so that we can all focus on hacking rather than what someone is or is not doing. To restate: SynHak is a community; members and non members alike have opinions and want to see it grow. If you have concerns or suggestions on how we should conduct ourselves don't hesitate to voice your opinion. regards, Andrew L On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 2:02 PM, Michael Griesacker <[email protected]>wrote: > Rob, I will try to be brief. The discussion brought up some concerns, and > the topic of discussion was member/family pricing. As an aside, we > discussed our current rules concerning keys: Non-members are barred from > having keys, keys are non-transferrable between members. -also: There is > responsibility/risk of a keyholder, and when asked "what's the youngest age > a member should be to be entrusted to be at the space alone by themselves > in case of accident, emergency, other" the consensus of the small group was > 18yrs. I agree Robert is far more mature and responsible for his age, but > we felt it time to discuss some general rules, not exceptions. Seeing > Robert is intending to be chaperoned to the space by a parent, this is not > a conflict, except for the key part, and we felt that fit nicely into the > "family membership" pricing discussion. Technically, his membership, -if > going under the student clause would be $15. If an adult family member > joined, his membership would drop to 5$ and the first adult would be $35, > the second adult $15. > > I wouldn't have worded "nice stuff" so much as sharp and pokey if the > wrong end is used for the wrong thing. This is a makeshift electronics > lab/workshop, not a padded romper room (envisioning Mcdonalds play area). > We are all delighted to have Robert join, but did not fully think through > all the aspects. We all know Robert wouldn't be riding his bycicle here, > or being dropped off while mom goes to the grocery store. So I apologize > for the wording coming off as an attack on you and your wife's parenting > skills or to your son. We all feel that he should be encouraged and > nurtured as much as possible, but want to make sure we are setting some > healthy/reasonable boundaries. If you are willing to willing to work with > us on this minor growing pain, I think we can settle on a reasonable > solution that doesn't include 100x more fire extinguishers. Again, all of > this proposed has not been voted on by the membership group, just discussed > by our subcommittee, and released for general discussion. > > best regards, > > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 12:37 AM, Robert Rybicki <[email protected] > > wrote: > >> Sorry for the double post. Craig I thank you for sharing your story and >> your warm confirmation about membership. That is the kind of kinship we >> should all strive for. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 11, 2014, at 10:56 PM, Craig Bergdorf <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> (Happy to hear the argument about age having little to do with anything. >> I think I can get away with saying 29 when anyone asks for the foreseeable >> future, and before that it was 23, 16, 13, etc. I won't pretend I don't >> still have a bit of a complex on judgement based on age, being the awkward >> but tall kid dragged to mensa meetings their whole childhood that some >> drunkens would occasionally "mistake for a peer", then came the question >> that still cuts to the bone "how old are you?" ) >> >> A member is a member. >> Since the seven year old member is my son, I will add my opinions to the >> discussion. >> >> First and foremost I want to express my sad displeasure in reading this. >> Perhaps this being paraphrased ideas of a discussion many things are >> getting lost in translation. However the things I have issue with are >> listed as "problems" >> >> My seven year old lives 46 minutes driving distance from the space and >> does not currently drive himself places. If he was of driving age and as a >> parent I decided he was mature enough to go places by himself, or use shop >> tools, or as you put it "nice things" then I would let him go do those >> things. Perhaps sometimes I would go with him at times to check on how safe >> he is still being. Perhaps also I would put two gps tracking devices on his >> car so when he finds the first one I have redundancy. Also guaranteed I, or >> a close and not easily recognizable friend would tail him at times. The >> point I am trying to make here, is my son that is a member of syn/hak, is >> not autonomous yet, and when the time comes that he is, we will still >> parent him. >> >> The way "nice things" is worded I am taken back to my own childhood when >> my evil aunt had us over and I was confined to the kitchen, because she had >> a house full of collectable garbage (much like syn/hak,) and I was too much >> of "an animal" to go into the rest of the rooms in the house. If there are >> concerns about your members not being able to handle tool, machines, >> supplies, or members projects (again, I'm fuzzy on what is nice,) perhaps >> those concerns could be brought up to that member or the members guardian. >> My wife was at the meeting with our seven year old. Nothing was said. >> >> Robert W in in fact seven and is more responsible than myself at times. >> If you tell him a rule, good luck trying to change it after that, because >> it has already been programmed. He is excited to be part of this community. >> A community he and believe in and he absolutely belongs in. He is also >> excited to gain full 24/7 access to the space because of my unusual >> schedule. If entrusted with something and told how important it is he will >> follow through every time. Go shooting with him sometime and he will give >> you a lesson in gun safety and have better muzzle control than you do. My >> younger child is more haphazard as a matter of personality and he will not >> be going to the space for the foreseeable future because I can not trust >> him. >> >> I recognize this is a matter of policy and not an attack on my child. I >> struggle with it, but I recognize it. Perhaps it would have been more >> excellent to just say minor, then call out your only seven year old member. >> It makes us feel like he is unwanted or not trusted. Again things that >> should have been brought up at the meeting. He applied for membership at >> the suggestion of Torrie. He was vouched for by Torrie and Becca. His full >> membership was consented on by the members at this weeks meeting. He was >> not made an associate member, an honorary member, or a previsionary member. >> He was accepted by what appeared to be open arms. >> >> I realize syn/hak is not a daycare. Torrie expressed this concern to me >> the night Robert W turned in his application. I thought I made it clear >> then that he would never be at the space without myself or a close family >> member there. That said I agree that a mature person should be watching >> unknown or immature people. I have a problem with an age being just set at >> a magical number of 18. Poof your 18 now, you can handle all the nice >> things, go play and have fun. >> >> Here is my counter proposal if you will. If anyone has a problem with >> minors or in this case seven year olds don't make them members. Or perhaps >> since maturity is not a function of age it would be more appropriate to >> bring up concerns during the interview process, and then decide that some >> kids can or cannot be members because they and their guardians are not a >> good fit. >> If there are concerns with a member, or if the member is a minor, that >> minor and their guardians, then don't issue a key; keep age out of it. Age >> has nothing to do with anything in my opinion and it is more a matter of >> character. Perhaps their will come a day there is a teen or two that >> really need syn/hak in their life because the sports teams and the kids >> that play on them don't understand said teen. These decisions need to be >> made on a case by case basis as I was under the impression they already >> are. Making a policy against minors is foolish and not excellent. >> >> In closing, I am hurt. However, in a sick way I feel closer to syn/hak >> now. As if I went through a right-of-passage. Robert W and I got called out >> on discuss like I see others do to each other on a weekly basis. I am not >> the kind of personality to be nice to your face then get high and mighty >> behind the safety of a keyboard. I am not introverted and I prefer personal >> conflict resolution. If you have a problem with me or my family as a matter >> of excellence it will be addressed directly to me or my family before it >> gets thrown up on discuss. >> >> Thank you all for your time >> Robert S Rybicki >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Apr 11, 2014, at 7:18 PM, Torrie Fischer <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi, all. >> > >> > We had a very good discussion at the space tonight about membership >> dues and >> > such. >> > >> > Here's a draft: >> > >> > https://synhak.org/wiki/Membership/Sandbox >> > >> > The notable things: >> > >> > * There is still a 10% discount for buying 3+ months in advance, but it >> covers >> > the whole payment regardless of how many people you're paying for. >> > * Base membership is still $35/mo >> > * It is $15 per adult in a family instead of $35 >> > * Each minor under 18 years old is $5/mo in a family >> > * Keys may not be issued to those who are under 18 earth years of age >> > * Minors must have an adult supervising them at all times and the >> permission >> > of their legal parent/guardian >> > >> > This solves the following problems: >> > >> > * Many of us feel uncomfortable with letting a 7 year old have a key to >> our >> > Nice Things, which is a very big responsibility >> > * Families often aren't all using the space at the same time >> > * Many of us feel uncomfortable with letting a 7 year old roam around >> without >> > someone responsible watching them >> > >> > I'll be adding this to the agenda for next Tuesday for discussion. >> > >> > Feedback is welcome as always :) >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Discuss mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >
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