Just want to pop in and say these are great ideas - feel free to copy me in on any PR if you want extra opinions!
On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 8:26:28 AM UTC-7 Carlton Gibson wrote: > Great, Thanks Andrew. No urgency 😊 > > On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 at 16:16, Andrew Mshar <acm...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Will do, Carlton. >> >> Tim and Cory, thanks for the suggestions. I'll incorporate those in the >> PR and post here when it's ready. Probably not today, but I should be able >> to open it before the end of the week. >> >> Thanks, >> Andrew >> >> On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 10:10:51 AM UTC-5 carlton...@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Andrew. >>> >>> I had thought this was a Flatpage (stored in the database) but it's not. >>> The source is here: >>> https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/blob/main/djangoproject/templates/members/individualmember_list.html >>> If you wanted to open a PR suggesting your changes, that would be >>> amazing 🤩 >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Kind Regards, >>> >>> Carlton >>> >>> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 at 19:51, Tim Allen <fli...@peregrinesalon.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm of the opinion that if you care enough about Django to investigate >>>> becoming a member of the DSF, that's enough of a qualification - it is >>>> just >>>> challenging to formalize that into proper text for the website. Maybe two >>>> changes to encourage people to join: >>>> >>>> - We could tweak *"Running Django-related events or user groups" * >>>> to *"Attending or organizing Django-related events or user groups"*. >>>> - Add a sentence to the end of the first stanza: "The following are >>>> Individual Members of the Django Software Foundation. The DSF appoints >>>> individual Members in recognition of their service to the Django >>>> community. >>>> If you would like to join the DSF, we welcome you. Please feel free to >>>> self-nominate for membership." >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Tim >>>> >>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 11:12:41 AM UTC-5 cory...@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey Andrew, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for drafting this language and I think it looks great. As >>>>> someone who only recently applied after hearing it discussed on an >>>>> episode >>>>> of Django Chat[1], I'm all for the goals of making it more encouraging >>>>> and >>>>> accessible and think this is a great step in that direction. >>>>> >>>>> Here are a few minor thoughts to specific bits: >>>>> >>>>> Service to the Django community takes many forms. Here are some >>>>>> examples (non-exhaustive) of categories of work performed by members: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "performed by members" is a little ambiguous as to whether it means >>>>> "this is how we evaluate applicants" vs "this is what you'll do if part >>>>> of >>>>> the DSF". Since I think the intention is the former it might make sense >>>>> to >>>>> change to something like: >>>>> >>>>> *Service to the Django community takes many forms. Here are some >>>>> (non-exhaustive) examples of the categories of work that might qualify as >>>>> "service":* >>>>> >>>>> Borrowed the list of categories from Andrew Godwin's DEP for the >>>>>> update to the technical board. Per Tim's recommendation, do we want to >>>>>> include anything about the review process? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> When I applied I didn't (and still don't, really) have any visibility >>>>> into the process, so it wasn't a deterrent for me, personally, but I >>>>> think >>>>> having information certainly wouldn't hurt. My two cents would be good to >>>>> put something in, but not necessarily if it slows down/stalls this change >>>>> if for whatever reason that isn't super easy, since I think this >>>>> represents >>>>> an improvement on its own. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I'm a little unsure about that last bit about applying, but I >>>>>> wanted to put something encouraging to folks to apply. Happy to reword >>>>>> that >>>>>> if someone has a better suggestion. I'd prefer that to having a full >>>>>> rubric >>>>>> for membership on this page, primarily because I think it would be very >>>>>> difficult to nail that down because the work that folks perform can be >>>>>> so >>>>>> disparate (must have run X django meetups, or triaged Y tickets). >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Definitely agree a rubric would cause more problems than it would help >>>>> at this stage. The goals of rubrics in terms of increasing objectivity >>>>> and >>>>> reducing bias are great, but as applied to the already-squishy definition >>>>> of "service to the community" it doesn't seem like a good fit here. >>>>> >>>>> Finally, this is wildly out of scope, but it may make sense to (either >>>>> here or separately) attempt to create a bit more content about what it >>>>> means to be an individual member of the DSF. That information is also >>>>> somewhat lacking, and having it somewhere may encourage more people to >>>>> apply. One possibility could be to link to one of the recent conference >>>>> talks[2][3] on the DSF. But wouldn't want that discussion/information to >>>>> slow down this change. >>>>> >>>>> cheers, >>>>> Cory >>>>> >>>>> [1] https://djangochat.com/episodes/read-the-docs-eric-holscher >>>>> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_e-QoeZwEM >>>>> [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJnaEZkoVTg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 10:03:48 AM UTC-4 >>>>>> carlton...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> That would be awesome, yes. Fresh eyes likely see more clearly :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And equally. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thursday, 27 October 2022 at 15:28:09 UTC+2 acm...@gmail.com >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regarding Carlton's points, that does clarify, and I agree about >>>>>>>> the open ended qualifiers. I also agree with Tim's points. I'm not >>>>>>>> sure we >>>>>>>> need another membership level (I'm not opposed, though). Rather, I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> making the current page more transparent will help more folks feel >>>>>>>> welcome >>>>>>>> and hopefully get more folks (who do fit the criteria) to apply. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If someone wants to draft new language, that would be great. If >>>>>>>> not, I may have some time next week to try. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Andrew >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> P.S. Great meeting both of you at Djangocon last week! >>>>>>>> On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-4 >>>>>>>> schill...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Carlton, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think I might have been one of those people mentioning the lack >>>>>>>>> of definition around the membership requirements. It has held me back >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> applying (finally sent one in yesterday). Given the process's >>>>>>>>> obscurity >>>>>>>>> (see below), it's daunting to hit submit. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - The number of potential qualifiers is open ended. >>>>>>>>> - This should remain, unaltered. It makes the application >>>>>>>>> more daunting, but it's also encouraging in that any >>>>>>>>> contribution is valid. >>>>>>>>> - The degree of involvement per qualifier is not defined. >>>>>>>>> - This seems like something that could be done. The review >>>>>>>>> process must have a rubric of some sort. >>>>>>>>> - There is a valid argument to be made that making >>>>>>>>> statements about minimum levels of requirement could lead to a >>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>> disputing a rejection. >>>>>>>>> - The review process is not included on the form. >>>>>>>>> - Some people will appreciate having more information on >>>>>>>>> how the process works. >>>>>>>>> - The people who will see this application are not included >>>>>>>>> on the form. >>>>>>>>> - I know the DSF Board is doing at least part of the >>>>>>>>> approvals (I see it in the minutes), but I'm still unsure of >>>>>>>>> who will see >>>>>>>>> the application itself. If it's the broader DSF membership, >>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>> uncomfortable to send all of you an advertisement about my >>>>>>>>> involvement in >>>>>>>>> your/our community. >>>>>>>>> - There's nothing to help a person decide how to make the >>>>>>>>> decision to put yourself out there. >>>>>>>>> - Until San Diego I did not have a personal relationship >>>>>>>>> with any DSF member, which meant I never sent a DM to an >>>>>>>>> existing DSF >>>>>>>>> member to ask what the process was like for them or if I was >>>>>>>>> qualified. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think if the form itself were a bit more transparent people will >>>>>>>>> feel more comfortable sending in an application. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Tim >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 2:19 AM Carlton Gibson < >>>>>>>>> carlton...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Andrew. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes. Good question. I'm not immediately sure if there is a better >>>>>>>>>> description of DSF membership around. 🤔 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's meant to be a recognition of contribution to the community, >>>>>>>>>> be that to the code in django/django, maintaining a <modifier> >>>>>>>>>> third-party >>>>>>>>>> package, organising a DjangoCon or community meetup, mentoring, ... >>>>>>>>>> — the >>>>>>>>>> dots there are that the list incompletable, not simply because I'm >>>>>>>>>> too lazy >>>>>>>>>> to type, if that makes sense 😜 >>>>>>>>>> (These tie roughly to the suggested points for eligibility for >>>>>>>>>> being on the Steering Committee in Andrew's proposal >>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/django/deps/pull/75/files> except without >>>>>>>>>> the "and you're still engaged" requirement that's also there — once >>>>>>>>>> earned, >>>>>>>>>> it's yours.) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There was some discussion of this at both recent DjangoCons... — >>>>>>>>>> there's a bit of a gap for people, perhaps like yourself, first >>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>> involved. One idea was a more open membership level that anyone >>>>>>>>>> interested >>>>>>>>>> could take up, that would allow easier communication if nothing >>>>>>>>>> else. I >>>>>>>>>> don't know how those discussions will turn out, but stay tuned 🙂 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I hope that clarifies a litte? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In any case, Welcome aboard! ⛵️ :) Please reach out if you need >>>>>>>>>> any help. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carlton >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 at 15:48, Andrew Mshar <acm...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Along the lines of discussions about redefining requirements for >>>>>>>>>>> board seats (e.g. >>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/django-developers/c/FbNaAq3rz6c), I >>>>>>>>>>> think it would be helpful to clarify what we want from individual >>>>>>>>>>> members >>>>>>>>>>> of the DSF here: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.djangoproject.com/foundation/individual-members/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As a non-member who recently made my first contribution to >>>>>>>>>>> Django, I looked at that page and thought: is that enough for me to >>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>>>>>>>>> member? I'm not particularly concerned about my own membership, but >>>>>>>>>>> rather, >>>>>>>>>>> this made me realize that the lack of clarity may prevent others >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> joining who otherwise should. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is there anywhere that we have a more clear outline of what we >>>>>>>>>>> expect from members both before they join and after? If not, could >>>>>>>>>>> we have >>>>>>>>>>> that discussion here to clarify for future members? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> Andrew >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" >>>>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/824f1e56-64f1-44e4-9612-dc121c5d3efcn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/824f1e56-64f1-44e4-9612-dc121c5d3efcn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" >>>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAJwKpySfQfgtpoLnCYcwfsaL7g1kgOZU%2BPvKyvggm0UT%3DLpiWg%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAJwKpySfQfgtpoLnCYcwfsaL7g1kgOZU%2BPvKyvggm0UT%3DLpiWg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/2a6cab2c-2112-4cb0-92c2-54470dd799aan%40googlegroups.com >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/2a6cab2c-2112-4cb0-92c2-54470dd799aan%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/714068fd-a3c4-4ba9-aa69-52f96ef72b5en%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/714068fd-a3c4-4ba9-aa69-52f96ef72b5en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/ee8b40d0-0c37-43b8-b8ca-6438aaf17341n%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/ee8b40d0-0c37-43b8-b8ca-6438aaf17341n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. 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