--- In [email protected], "Nate Duehr" <n...@...> wrote: > > > On Fri, 22 May 2009 02:38:59 -0000, "fb38052286" <fb38052...@...> > said: > > I know that with a D-star repeater, the repeater cannot have the same > > callsign as the owner's and one needs to get a frequency pair from the > > repeater council. I read over the application from the repeater > > council's site and it asks for the repeater's callsign. Should I get a > > callsign for the repeater from the fcc first, then apply with the > > repeater council? > > The local frequency coordination body is mainly concerned with exactly > that... frequency coordination. If you're putting up a repeater, you > probably already have an idea if you're in a densely populated area > where there are few of the limited number of repeater frequency pairs > available on the band you desire to set up your repeater, or you know > there's room... long before you think about becoming a repeater > owner/operator. > > The order in which you do things isn't CRITICAL, but there are some > show-stoppers. First what you need is a CLUB callsign. The FCC has a > few rules about those -- individuals can't apply for them by themselves. > It doesn't HAVE to be a vanity call, just a separate club call. > > As far as the council goes... what they always desire is COMMUNICATION > from prospective users of the limited repeater spectrum. They also > usually want the communication to be CONCISE. Tell them ALL of the > information they request in their forms, remain polite, and all that. > > The question as to "what should I do first" is best answered if we have > some kind of idea where you live. If you're in Downtown Los Angeles, > and you're planning on a VHF repeater... we'll all laugh and tell you > "good luck"... see ya later. > > If you're in farm country in a fly-over State... different story. > > > Also, should I have all the equipment gathered for the > > repeater and it ready to go before doing this or can it be done ahead of > > time. I know that the RC gives you a six month period to get the > > repeater online, but I'm not sure if there's something similar with the > > fcc. > > Our local group's club call was issued very rapidly, and then they > wanted to pay for a vanity of W0CDS (W0-Colorado D-STAR) and that took a > few more weeks. We decided to wait until the callsign was finalized > prior to installing the system, since D-STAR repeaters have to be > programmed with the callsign, and so does the Gateway server if you're > going to provide Internet access at your repeater site and link to the > rest of the D-STAR world with a Gateway. > > > If anyone has done this before, what kind of things will the fcc > > ask? If anyone has a link to the application/information page for the > > fcc to get a callsign (hopefully vanity) for an upcoming D-star repeater, > > that would be very helpful for me. I tried looking but didn't find what > > I was looking for. > > We've ALL done it before. :-) Look up Club callsign application > requirements on the FCC site. Once you have the club call, then use the > vanity process and pay the extra money to switch it. > > Reading your note... I'm far more concerned about something else... is > this your first repeater? The reason I ask is there are a number of > things you MUST understand to build a D-STAR repeater that works well... > and the main one being... CHEAP ham-quality antennas, feedline, and > filters (duplexers) just simply won't cut it... because you CAN'T test a > D-STAR repeater easily for desense and other problems like you can HEAR > when an analog repeater "goes bad". If you're not familiar with > WELL-BUILT analog FM repeaters already, I can't more highly than YELLING > in e-mail HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend that you find an Analog FM > repeater-building ELMER to help with this process. > > The NUMBER ONE MISTAKE I see is hams who look at the list price of > something called a "repeater" and think that's it... that's the price to > start my own repeater. In D-STAR, the repeaters are only about HALF the > cost of a properly built repeater system with *brand new* RF components. > If you have access to COMMERCIAL QUALITY used antennas, hardline, > connectors, lightning protection, power supplies, and duplexers from a > source other than buying brand new, you can save a LOT of money -- but > most folks I see buying a brand new repeater (D-STAR or otherwise) > who've never built one before do NOT have those commercial industry > connections, and MUST buy new. > > I don't know how many Analog FM systems I've run into over the years > that are running on cheap Amateur grade antennas, poor quality lossy > feedline, and the cheapest "mobile" duplexer they could find on eBay, > who are SHOCKED when you hook up some test gear and tell them their > repeater would have MILES more range if they didn't have 10dB or more of > desense from the low-quality components they built the RF/antenna system > with. That or they're blown up in the first lightning strike because > they've never seen or researched how to properly protect a radio system > that CAN'T be unplugged in a lightning storm, because it's on a mountain > 20 miles away. > > So... with all that said... D-STAR is *harder* in some respects than > your first analog FM repeater. You CAN'T measure it's performance > properly... the first announced commercial service monitor (test gear) > for D-STAR isn't due out until next month and it's going to cost more > than $10K for those lucky enough to see one in their area of the > country... so you can put up a D-STAR repeater, and find it DISAPPOINTS > you greatly because it won't even cover where a similar Analog FM system > does... if you're not putting the right RF subsystem products up with > it. > > Here's some things I recommend to new repeater people: > > - Go to www.repeater-builder.com and read EVERYTHING. Take some of it > with a grain of salt. > - Meet (IN PERSON) some of the local area's top repeater people. Take > an interest in THEIR systems and volunteer. Repeater maintenance and > technical knowledge is at an all-time low... they'll teach. > - Don't expect the local repeater council to elmer or teach unless they > specifically offer such services. DO expect them to be CAUTIOUS about > giving you a wide-area coverage frequency right off the bat if you have > zero knowledge of repeater building and operation. BE READY and answer > ALL of their HIGHLY DETAILED questions (if they're doing their jobs > right) about your antenna system gain figures, power levels, exact > coordinates of your transmitter, and KNOW all of their policies cold > up-front before communicating with them. Think about how you can make > their volunteer jobs easier when you communicate with them about a > potential or ready-to-go-on-air system. > - EXPECT the cost of the repeater to be DOUBLE the price of the repeater > modules. BUY commercial-quality gear for your repeater site... it will > pay off in spades when you only have to replace antennas every 10-15 > years. "Diamond" and "Comet" are NOT commercial quality antenna > builders. Learn names like "TX-RX", "Sinclair", "Decibel Products", > "Andrews" and the things that the commercial RF guys "speak". > - FIND AN ELMER... listen to the local Analog FM repeaters and pick the > BEST PERFORMING ones, and meet the people that built and/or maintain > them. THEY KNOW how to make repeaters work. Many of them might be > interested in D-STAR but are too busy, too broke, or otherwise too > preoccupied to build a system -- but with you "leading the charge" on > getting the repeaters and generally "driving the bus", many of them > would be happy to work "in the shadows" helping you get the system > on-air... infrastructure guys are like that. Me included. I got > "thrust" into a club president's role after doing work on analog > repeaters for a while, but given my choice... I'd FAR rather just go to > the sites and work on things with a tight team of technical helpers, > than to mess with things like renewing the PO Box, paying the site rent > bills, negotiating new contracts, getting insurance quotes... yadda > yadda. The "front office" jobs and "back office" jobs all need to be > covered. I have a GREAT team at my "analog club", but we're thin. Very > thin. EVERYONE checks the box that says "Willing to volunteer for tech > crew" but ask ANY of those folks if they even own a hard hat?... > Remember we're talking $5 at Home Depot here... the answer is "Why would > I need one?" Seriously... that's not a tech... that's a trainee, and > you can eat up a LOT of time training just ONE new tech to do the work > smart, safe, and efficiently. > - Plan on this being a multi-year project. Seriously. It took me years > to learn how to tweak an analog system for best performance, and frankly > -- as a hobbyist I do NOT have time to do it all.. which leads to the > next one... > - BUILD A TEAM. You aren't going to be around 24/7 to talk to users, > work on repeater problems, etc. Single-owner analog repeaters are a > pain in the butt... a single-owner DIGITAL repeater can be even more-so. > Get friends to help both with the real work of putting the system > on-air, and also with the "support" roles, and if you're not > independently wealthy -- with the money too. It's "shared" > infrastructure... get "buy in" from others who also want to play on > D-STAR. > > That's just some thoughts... you're diving into DEEP waters starting up > your first repeater on D-STAR. YES... it can be done, but save yourself > SOME of the learning curve and find some help... someone who's built a > repeater in your area before. And get involved in places like the > Repeater-Builder mailing lists, etc... ask good questions, and you'll do > fine. > > Right now, you're at the stage where "you don't know what you don't > know". That's okay, but don't worry about the callsigns or the FCC > paperwork yet. Figure out what it's REALLY going to cost you to do it > right. Ask around and meet up with some Repeater building elmers for > coffee/beer, and start learning. You'll get further, faster, and the > system will work BETTER when you get done. > > With D-STAR, it doesn't hurt to figure out who your local ham radio > LINUX operating system experts are either. They can help you get the > GATEWAY going if you're going to have Internet at the site, and you're > planning on having a Gateway. Frankly, I don't think building a D-STAR > repeater WITHOUT a Gateway is all that worthwhile. It's just a digital > stand-alone repeater at that point, and most of the great features of > the system aren't there if you can't add a Gateway. You'd be better off > building an analog repeater for FAR less money out of surplus commercial > gear, if there's no IP/Internet at your repeater site. > > And most of all... have FUN with it. Or it's not worth doing. "Them's > just my thoughts"... > > Send us your callsign and name so we know who we're talking to, and > where you live. That'll help us tailor our answers a lot better to your > situation when it comes to frequency coordination and those > "administrivia" questions. But shoot FIRST for a high-quality RF > INFRASTRUCTURE station (that's what a repeater is, after all) and learn > what you need to know to do THAT part of it... then start > thinking/worrying about the coordination and the callsigns and things. > You're not just going to "buy a box" at HRO and put it on the air at > your house in 5 minutes and have it work right, if it's a repeater... > > Nate WY0X > -- > Nate Duehr > n...@... > I know it's going to be quite involved to pull this off. I am looking forward to this as a big learning experience also. I do have friends and acquaintances that can give advise and answer questions. I will be buying some of the equipment myself and other things will most likely be trading stuff we have for stuff we need. My friend that's helping me with the technical stuff, has a few connections with people that maintain and build commercial repeaters and other types of "gurus".
We're going to start out small at first, setting it up at a warehouse and tweaking and tuning it there along with learning the in's and out's of digital. Plans are not set in stone yet but we'll get the repeater up first, then add a gateway afterwards. I estimate that I will be paying for the controller, 440 deck, server, and the best antenna I can get. My friend can get the other stuff. I'm leaning towards the highest gain (and most expensive probably) Hustler Spirit repeater antenna eventually. Later on down the road, I will put it on an existing tower or tallest building I can find that we can get on for no cost or as low as possible. Like I said, my friend knows people in the business, and I know a few people that might have connections in that department too. I know later I will be asking questions, when I get to that point, about suggestions for how big of a pipe for dsl I will need or maybe cable. The whole static vs dynamic ip thing is still not clear because I've been reading that it doesn't matter anymore, although static would be easier to remote admin to but it would also cost more. I could go on and on about my plans but I just wanted to reply to your post. I suppose if I had to, I could make a club and just tell people, "hey, you're a member of the club." I'm not wanting it to be big but I will have to see what the future brings.
