>Sorry, but you're probably almost TWO orders of magnitude off!!! A typical >nuclear plant is going to be generating 1,000's of megawatts. You don't >build those things small, not when you had the cost of the plant being >doubled or worse because of delays posed by the foaming-at-the-mouth >radiophobes. BTW, conservation is fine and nobody's arguing that you shouldn't conserve. But if you expect to conserve your way out of an energy problem, then you're fooling yourself seriously. Unless, of course, you LIKE the idea of living in a stagnant society that self-imposes a fundamental limit to growth. Even assuming you reach 100% efficient use of energy (which you can't, of course, due to entropy), how then do you grow your economy beyond that point?? You have to produce more energy! Has nothing to do with political views... The laws of nature really don't give a flip about any of that political crap. ----- Eric, Not wanting to get into a list flamewar over nothing that has to do with Duos, but DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU SLAM ME. Total generating capacity of the Eureka plant, unit 4 (only one operational) is 63,000 kw... that's 63 megawatts for the few of you who can't do your math. It's a small nuke plant, yes, but represents how many coal-fired units? How many nat gas plants? How many ill-conceived hydro plants? The radiophobes got that way because of the arrogance and idiocy that developed substandard plants to cut costs and increase profits. Then you have self-professed experts running the plants, and making stupid mistakes (aka three mile island). Those ignorant idiots protesting the plants may just have made them safer. As for your economic argument -- explain to me how any natural system sustains unlimited growth? At any growth rate, all systems in a self-contained environment have to be at steady-state -- or they die. That's us. And while thermodynamically the Earth is not a closed system on to itself, for all intents and purposes, until you figure out StarTrek-like travel or power supplies, we live in a bottle -- totally enclosed. So here's your economic lesson for the day (and you can do the math): economic "growth" demanded by a consumer economy requires 3% growth for the boneheads in Washington to claim we are "healthy". Anything less is considered sickly -- anything much over 4 is considered dangerous for triggering inflation. Now, the true economists (and simple lay people who were awake in 8th grade social studies) have a simple and effective formula for calculating growth rates and end results: the rule of 72. This states that given any rate of change, you can roughly determine the time it takes to double your product/resource in years. rate * time = 72 Money: Given a 2% growth rate (interest) for a $1000, it will take 36 years to double that investment to $2000. (2 * x = 72, solve for x) Populations: Given a 4% breeding rate (we leave off mortality rates), it will take 18 years for that population to double. Energy consumption: Given a 3% growth rate in fuel consumption, it will take 24 years before we have to double our energy production to sustain the "growth". Now, the rule breaks down when you get to finer details such as attrition of whatever commodity you are measuring (bank fees or brokers eating into your investment, death rates within populations, shifts in energy demands due to technology or social changes. And it is a simple model, compared to differential equations which can give better precision to the predictions -- but for a rough and tumble estimate, it works well. You do the math, Eric. Tell me where we stop on our relentless breeding experiment. Tell me where our society stops when building gadgets and toys (be they computers, strip malls, SUVs, diapers, whatever). Tell me where our natural resources are in unlimited supply to support this unlimited growth theory pushed by a business community who can't accurately predict next quartes sales forecast, let alone 5 - 10 - 25 years from now (Apple Computer is a good case in point for poor production planning :) ). O.K., O.K., so the general public doesn't want to be bothered with THINKING. And most engineers and scientists -- the ones who should know better -- rarely leave their little boxes or ivory towers to look into the larger scope -- and the environmental extremists are equally hypocritical by wearing and using the products they claim to be "fighting" every day -- but this concept that we can sustain a growth pattern that is otherwise totally alien to the natural world and natural laws is completely flawed, self-serving, and short-sighted. You are wrong -- we cannot sustain this growth model. We have to adopt a dynamically stable economic and social model to survive -- and we have to do it within the next few generations. This is not a stagnation model, simply stop the retarded pattern of "build" more and replace it with "replace with better". I sound like chicken little, don't I? Yep -- I am frightened. By the greed that has been fostered by our country's (U.S.) social values, marketing, entertainment and government. By the lack of vision and thinking -- critical assessment skills -- within our university programs for engineers, scientists and business schools -- and by a population who couldn't truly be bothered enough to vote in one idiot over another (yeah, I voted for Gore -- as a lesser of two evils, not because he was much more of a leader than the moron and Mr. Cheney). None of this matters to the Duo list. Or does it? One of the reasons I'm here is that this is a product who's time has come -- and passed. Yet we still try to keep these boxes working. Why? You people aren't helping to promote a "healthy economy" by purchasing more of the newest and greatest. You aren't helping Apple's bottom line (without whom, I don't have much of a job). Oh yeah, it's because by and large, we DON'T need the latest and greatest. I can't type any faster on a Titanium than I can on a 210. The words don't mean more on a fancy 22" plasma display than they do on a 9" greyscale SE. It's because the tools we have here -- old and lost of their "new car smell" still work -- we are recyclers. We are using a resource until every drop of its lifeblood, MNiH battery, type F rev keyboard, broken little feet, worn off key letters is spent. This is one tiny step in the right direction, taken by a few eccentric people intent on squeezing any remaining life (of which there is still a lot) out of a tiny segment of our environment. Ooooh, so I had a weird Nader moment there.... but you get the picture. I'm not bashing Eric. His statements are sadly the same as our governmental policy, and largely the world. Only, because we live but some 50-80 years, we are not taught to look beyond that period. Because we stand on a street, we cannot see the Earth is round. And because our schools don't truly teach us to Think Different -- rather they beat individuality out of us, bludgeoning us into conformity -- after years of fighting the system as children, we capitulate into not thinking at all. Sadly, that is when we become adults -- and as our reward, the so-called leaders of our society inundate us with "Buy more and buy more often" treats -- dangling "the good life" in front of us and telling us to don't worry, be happy. Not mentioning that we are drowning in our own pollution of products -- and their trappings. Yo, Eric -- we should have a beer. Nothing personal, man. I agree completely with you that natural laws don't give a flip about political crap -- nor do they care much about us. Only, we shouldn't be so myoptic as to ignore THEM :) Just my two cents -- and hey, I might be wrong. BTW -- you'll like this link: http://www.ratical.org/radiation/CNR/PP/app7nt.html (my best friend worked at the CP&L southport plants for six years -- I know a little about the industry :) ) Good monday morning kids -- I think I've said too much. paul ---------- Duo/2400 List, The friendliest place on the Net! A listserv for users and fans of Mac subportables. FAQ at <http://www.themacintoshguy.com/lists/DuoListFAQ.shtml> Be sure to visit Mac2400! <http://www.sineware.com/mac2400> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Need help from a real person? Try. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ---------- Dr. Bott | 10/100 Ethernet for your 2400 is finally here! MPC-100 | <http://www.drbott.com/prod/mpc100.html> NineWire | If they are cool enough to host this list... 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