I might have this wrong, but I thought Modeled Workbench and CSS/Styling where specifically aimed at simplying the programming model (while leveraging new runtime technologies). The discussions around contexts and dependency injection we have been having recently are also aimed at this objective. To put it another way, if all these new things are actually *harder* to use than the Eclipse 3.x APIs, they will probably fail...
John "Oberhuber, Martin" <[email protected]> Sent by: [email protected] 01/13/2009 11:08 AM Please respond to E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> To "E4 Project developer mailing list" <[email protected]> cc Subject RE: [e4-dev] e4 Survey Great text! My one question about "simplify the Eclipse programming model" is: how much of our efforts are we actually putting into it at the moment? One point about e4 being community funded is that the priorities are whatever the contributors make them. I'd love to see more effort being put into "simplify the programming model", but with the "loosely coupled" setup of contributors we have today (compared to a strong project lead following a strictly planned agenda), I see a risk of this goal being put off again and again while we're all working on things that we see more pressing at the moment. >From my company's perspective, I also need to admit that we see our effort in Resources more pressing (note: I don't say "more important") than investing in the programming model. And I assume it's similar for others. That being said, I see much more work around "styling the UI" at the moment (which is not mentioned) than around "simplifying the programming model". So, is it fair to name this as a "principle aim" of e4? (I'd hope so). And are the "web-based runtime technologies" really a level above the other efforts such as CSS/Styling, Modeled Workbench or Resources? I've tried putting these thoughts into an alternative proposal for the text, but couldn't come up with one (looks like John's was just too good :-) so I'm just sending these thoughts for now. Cheers, -- Martin Oberhuber, Senior Member of Technical Staff, Wind River Target Management Project Lead, DSDP PMC Member http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp/tm From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Arthorne Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:26 PM To: E4 Project developer mailing list Subject: Re: [e4-dev] e4 Survey How does this sound: e4 is the community effort for building the next generation of the Eclipse Platform. The project has three principle aims: to simplify the Eclipse programming model, to enable the platform for use on emerging web-based runtime technologies, and to broaden participation in development of the platform. Simplifying the programming model will reduce development and maintenance costs and enable a larger developer community to leverage the platform in their own Eclipse-based applications. Enabling the platform on new runtime technologies will ensure the platform remains a compelling and viable application framework in a rapidly changing web technology landscape. This will allow e4-based applications to leverage powerful new web technologies, while remaining insulated from specific technology choices that may quickly become obsolete. Finally, broadening participation in development of the platform itself reduces the risks associated with building on a platform largely funded from a single source. Having a large and diverse group of commercial backers, will ensure the platform remains vibrant and viable over the long term. An investment in e4 will reduce overall development costs, enable leveraging of new runtime technologies without being locked into short term technology choices in an age of rapid obsolescence, and provide a stable long term application platform. Now I need to go and get clean again... John Kevin McGuire/Ottawa/i...@ibmca Sent by: [email protected] 01/13/2009 09:04 AM Please respond to E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> To E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> cc Subject Re: [e4-dev] e4 Survey Hey Jeff, I understand and agree with it's importance. I'm willing to help on this, but as I said, we need someone with a business marketing side, who knows this audience, to help. Think of it as matching grants. I also would like to see broader participation in these kinds of efforts as its tending to fall to a small number of people who are spread thin. One problem we have (see, I said "problem" and not "challenge" or "opportunity" :> ) is that an inherent goal of e4 is to be open. Thus the definition is determined by what the participants want to do, and is subject to change as they change their focus, more get involved, etc. It's hard therefore to explain what it does for a consumer of it and has I think made our "messaging" kind of wishy washy. If we had laid out a definitive road map it would've made it easier to focus people but it would've been at the cost of community building. We have some pieces of technology which I believe we could do a better job at explaining their value (modelled UI being a good example). But IHMO, an important message must continue to be that others can get involved and have the ability to change the direction. At this point I personally believe this continued growth of the committer base is more important than any of the technology. Regards, Kevin Jeff McAffer <[email protected]> Sent by: [email protected] 01/12/2009 09:01 PM Please respond to E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> To E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> cc Subject Re: [e4-dev] e4 Survey Thanks Kevin. IMHO this is a significantly important group to the overall success so communicating effectively is important. Clarification. One paragraph or so is the desired content length. I don't think you can do much better for any audience with one sentence. Think elevator pitch in a low-rise building :-) As much as we would like to think that the value of e4 is inherent in "its the next Eclipse", most of the rest of the community wants to know what does it do for them. This requires a move from the techno-geek "cool" factor to identifying the business value delivered to someone building on top of the platform. What pain points are addressed? Jeff Kevin McGuire wrote: I realize that my comment might've come across as being uncooperative, so just to clarify: We're clearly failing at communicating to that audience. We're technical people and write, with some success, to other technical people. For my part, I never write something for business people to consume. I don't know how to communicate to that audience [1], and though I'd like to do better, me trying again without guidance is unlikely to produce a better result. Someone with business/marketing knowledge who *does* know how to communicate to that audience could help guide. I was guessing that by the time they explain what we need to communicate, they're likely to have just written the one sentence. :) Seems like a lot of discussion when all that was asked for was a single sentence but I'm concerned by the larger issue of communication and I'd like to see a more coordinated, coherent, and, well, professional approach, so lets start now. If I had an "e4 Inc" company, I'd expect the marketing department to be quite involved in such an endeavour (and I'm guessing it wouldn't be staffed by developers). So how do we get the next best thing? Regards, Kevin [1] As proof of this, when I spell checked this email I discovered I misspelled "marketing". Kevin McGuire/Ottawa/i...@ibmca Sent by: [email protected] 01/12/2009 04:20 PM Please respond to E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> To E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> cc Subject Re: [e4-dev] e4 Survey Maybe those putting together the survey could provide guidance on how the information can be tuned to that target audience (say, by taking the proposal and reworking it as an example :> ). Kevin Jeff McAffer <[email protected]> Sent by: [email protected] 01/12/2009 03:54 PM Please respond to E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> To E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> cc Subject Re: [e4-dev] e4 Survey All I can say is that the people putting together the survey feel that the information in its current form is not readily consumable by their target audience. Providing tuned information for this audience will improve the quality of the feedback we receive. Jeff Oberhuber, Martin wrote: Why not have them "pull" any background technical information rather than trying to "push" something that's bound to be incomplete when it should just be one sentence. So what about this: e4 is the community effort for building the next generation of the Eclipse Platform. For any details, see the e4 project proposal [1]. [1] http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/e4/ Of course we should eventually prepare something on the web or the wiki that's more current but still as informative as the project proposal. But for now, I still find the proposal most appropriate for persons seeking a higher-level understanding of e4. Cheers, -- Martin Oberhuber, Senior Member of Technical Staff, Wind River Target Management Project Lead, DSDP PMC Member http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp/tm From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeff McAffer Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:18 PM To: E4 Project developer mailing list Subject: [e4-dev] e4 Survey At a recent board meeting we had a discussion about e4 and what it means to the Eclipse membership. The results were quite mixed with widely differing opinions and thoughts. One thing that did come out was the idea of polling the membership for some feedback. Mike Taylor, an elected Solution Provider director on the board volunteered to poll the Solution Providers on this topic and has set about creating a survey. As part of this there should be a description of e4. I'll quote Mike on this. "I had seen the e4 description on the wiki page, but didn't find it satisfying for the purposes of this survey. This survey will go to the contact (often a "business" person) who is the designated EMO contact point for a particular Solution Provider company. Its primary intent is to get a high-level feeling for what people know and think about e4 right now. Its not really designed to be a technical or feature survey." It would be great if as a community we can provide a brief (one paragraph) description of e4. Something a bit deeper than "the next generation of Eclipse" but a bit shallower than what's on the wiki. This is a really good opportunity to raise awareness of e4 and simultaneously get valuable feedback and input. 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