With all due respect, Mike, the last thing I see from you in this thread says, >>I’ve cc’d Ian on this to see if he can help. He’s pretty good at this kind of stuff.<<
Regards, Dave Orme 2009/2/27 <[email protected]> > > My recollection is that we decided to defer the topic. Does that worry you? > > Mike Milinkovich > [email protected] > +1.613.220.3223 (mobile) > > ------------------------------ > *From*: "Oberhuber, Martin" > *Date*: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:57:48 +0100 > *To*: <[email protected]>; Ian Skerrett< > [email protected]> > > *Subject*: RE: [e4-dev] What *are* we doing here??? <g> > > Hi Mike, Ian, > > has this been followed up on? Do we have some customer focused positioning > statement for e4? > > Thanks, > -- > *Martin Oberhuber*, Senior Member of Technical Staff, *Wind River* > Target Management Project Lead, DSDP PMC Member > http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp/tm > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On > Behalf Of *Mike Milinkovich > *Sent:* Sonntag, 01. Februar 2009 18:25 > *To:* 'E4 Project developer mailing list' > *Cc:* 'Ian Skerrett' > *Subject:* RE: [e4-dev] What *are* we doing here??? <g> > > Kevin, David, Boris, et al. > > > > This is a really good conversation to be having. > > > > I hope this doesn’t upset anyone, but a positioning statement with six > points is not a positioning statement. They need to short, visionary and > 100% “customer” focused. The points below could be a really good project > summary, but that’s a different thing. > > > > I’ve cc’d Ian on this to see if he can help. He’s pretty good at this kind > of stuff. > > > > Mike Milinkovich > > Office: +1.613.224.9461 x228 > > Mobile: +1.613.220.3223 > > [email protected] > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On > Behalf Of *Kevin McGuire > *Sent:* January-27-09 6:50 PM > *To:* E4 Project developer mailing list > *Subject:* Re: [e4-dev] What *are* we doing here??? <g> > > > > > Hi David, > > It's great that you're thinking of this. Boris, McQ and I were discussing > something similar just the other day and to be honest we were really > struggling. > > With respect to what you have below, this is the first we've used the word > "Cloud". It's pretty trendy today so maybe we should, not sure. I will note > that at first you're saying how we're extending the reach of the platform > (good), the second is a discussion about adoption of technologies. The > problem with the latter is that they are only as useful as the advantages > they provide, so saying we'll evolve the architecture and adopt technologies > ... to what aim? > > My belief is that we need to speak in terms of practical advantages so that > a company will see real benefit in e4, either in terms of reduced > application development cost, integration with a new breed of applications, > or ability to reach new audiences by targetting the web without having to > completely abandon their Eclipse investement. If they see benefit, they may > be will be willing to spend some developer resources contributing. Thus > that value must be clear. > > Things we said we'd do, and how I think they'll provide value: > > 0) Be more open as an organization: That's important for Eclipse, and for > people to know they can get involved, but I think is only interesting with > respect to perceptions of the past which hopefully we're changing (hence > #0). > > 1) Make it easier to write applications, make it easier to maintain > applications: This is a big win for anybody choosing Eclipse as an > application platform. In fact, arguably that's the whole point of an > application platform, that you have to write less stuff because of all the > hardened libraries at your disposal. Modelled UI, declarative UI all come > into play here. > > 2) Make it easier to contribute to the platform: based on the notion that > by cleaning up the code base and picking known popular technologies like > EMF, people can step in to contribute where they could not before. Maybe > more of an organizational item, but also a benefit to consumers in the sense > that they believe that if they find a platform bug they can fix it, and if > they find missing features they can add them. > > 3) Enable new kinds of UIs: This touches on both the "shape" of the > application, so RCP on steriods through modelled UI (which, by the way, I > think we should start calling "Flexible UI", because the model aspect is a > technical choice only and does not on its own ascribe goodness) [sorry Ed! > :>]. It also touches on the CSS work in making it easier to create new > looks for your applications. Presumably this has appeal to application > developers because they can modernize their apps, they are less restricted > in look, they have more opportunity for product branding, etc. > > 4) Something about flexible resources.... sorry haven't been keeping up > here <sheepish look>. > > 5) Extending the reach of the platform: web to desktop, desktop to web. > Reuse through deployment in the web or the desktop. This is where the > Javascript integration, plugins in Javascript, better support for web > widgets in the desktop all come in. The carrot here is reduced development > cost through reuse, and parity of application look and feel for applications > with both a web and desktop component (increasingly popular). > > I'm sure I've missed some stuff. > > Kevin > > > *David Orme <[email protected]>* > Sent by: [email protected] > > 01/27/2009 05:24 PM > > Please respond to > E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> > > To > > E4 Project developer mailing list <[email protected]> > > cc > > Subject > > Re: [e4-dev] What *are* we doing here??? <g> > > > > > > > Yes, what I wrote was weak in that respect. Take 2. <smack/> > > * > Beyond the Enterprise, into the Cloud* > > Tomorrow's applications will require integration of hand-held devices, > desktops, enterprise server applications, and applications that are hosted > "in the cloud" and are accessible from anywhere. E4 makes Eclipse the best > platform for delivering integrated applications that scale into all of these > environments. With E4, you can now target tiny devices, all the way up to > cloud services like Amazon's EC2, all from a single code base. > * > Take Eclipse's Architecture to the Next Level* > > In order to accomplish the above objective, Eclipse will fully adopt > technologies--such as Eclipse RAP--that have been in incubation for some > time, and evolve its core workbench architecture so that it can fully > participate in distributed and web 2.0-enabled applications. > > > Better? > > > Regards, > > Dave > > 2009/1/27 Boris Bokowski <[email protected]> > What I meant was a position statement as defined by: > http://www.ericsink.com/Positioning.html (and probably many other > marketing text books...) > > "The basic idea of positioning is that your product occupies a place in > the mind of the people in your target market. You are defined by their > perceptions of you. ... ask in which market segment you want to be known > as number one. You want to be known as the best of your breed, even if you > need several qualifiers to constrain the scope of your claim. Don't think > about being fifth place in a large market. Instead, be number one in a > smaller market. ... Identify the three parts of a position: superlative > (why choose this product), label (what is this product), and qualifiers (who > should choose this product)." > > I.e. something like: "Equinox is the number one componentization solution > for Java applications in the embedded, desktop, and server context." or "RCP > is the best platform for rich client applications that need native L&F > across all major desktop OSs" or "The Eclipse IDE is the most popular IDE > for Java programmers". > > Except we need something about e4... ;-) > > Boris > > Dave Orme wrote on 01/27/2009 04:36:12 PM: > > > > > OK, cool. How about: > > > > E4 will emphasize two primary themes: > > > > 1) Beyond the Enterprise, into the Cloud > > > > Eclipse has its roots as an enterprise software framework, capably > > delivering software from embedded devices through the server. > > > > E4 will extend Eclipse with the capabilities needed to deliver > > applications that live in the network cloud, whether on services > > like EC2 or on your own cluster. > > > > 2) Take Eclipse's Architecture to the Next Level > > > > In order to accomplish the above objective, Eclipse will fully adopt > > technologies--such as Eclipse RAP--that have been in incubation for > > some time, and evolve its core workbench architecture so that it can > > fully participate in distributed and web 2.0-enabled applications. > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Dave > > > > 2009/1/27 Boris Bokowski <[email protected]> > > Hi Dave, > > > > I agree with you that it is very important to think about e4 from a > > marketing point of view. Especially since we have explored a good > > number of areas and should be thinking about what we want to deliver > > (both short term and long term). > > > > It's kind of funny that you are mentioning marketing now. Just > > yesterday, I came across a blog posting about "marketing for geeks" > > which I found interesting as someone who had a small software > > company in the past. After enjoying all the parallels with what I > > experienced a couple of years ago, it occurred to me that many of > > the issues apply to the e4 project as well, in particular this one: > > http://www.ericsink.com/Positioning.html > > > > Ideally, we'd come up with a position statement about e4, maybe > > something like your (1) below but shorter. Any suggestions? > > > > About (2), I don't think the phrase "architecture clean-up" is > > something you can use for marketing purposes. :-P It's not about the > > intrinsic properties, it's about what you can do with it. > > > > Boris > > > > > > Dave Orme wrote on 01/27/2009 03:22:56 PM: > > > > > > > Awhile back we put together a few paragraphs describing what E4 is > > > about from a (dirty) marketing point of view. Beware: if you read > > > onward, you might need to take a bath. ;-) > > > > > > Seriously though, what occurred to me last night is that E4 is > > > really about two themes: > > > > > > 1) Eclipse has always been about providing great infrastructure. > > > SWT gives us great infrastructure horizontally across operating > > > system platforms. eSWT, eRCP, however, broaden Eclipse vertically > > > down into the embedded space. E4 is about moving Eclipse up in the > > > vertical space so that it can also be a platform for cloud-based > > applications. > > > After E4, we will cover all major desktop and server operating > > > systems horizontally and the embedded through cloud space > > > vertically. The enabling technologies here are Equinox, RAP, and > > > [[the second E4 theme]] which is: > > > > > > 2) Code and architecture clean-up. Singletons are (nearly) always > > > evil, but especially so in a multi-user environment like RAP. > > > Resources can be anywhere. Declarative UIs are nice. Etc... I > > > won't re-hash any more of this here as we're all well-versed in it by > now. > > > > > > My Question: > > > > > > Does this sound like a good way to describe and position E4? > > > > > > OK, maybe that's a silly question to ask a bunch of engineers. ;-) > > > > > > But does anyone think I'm missing anything important or glossing > > > over something that I shouldn't be. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Dave Orme > > > _______________________________________________ > > > e4-dev mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/e4-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > > e4-dev mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/e4-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > > e4-dev mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/e4-dev > > _______________________________________________ > e4-dev mailing list* > *[email protected]* > *https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/e4-dev > > _______________________________________________ > e4-dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/e4-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > e4-dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/e4-dev > >
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