On Wed, 3 May 1995, Coyote1 wrote:
> I can imagine that with all the `family values' hoohaa and anti-gay
> temper in politics these days, Bertina and others feel a need for our
> support and acceptance. I think they'd like to feel that this is a safe
> haven where they can come and discuss issues pertinent to them in that
> context. And I think we can offer them that - can we not?
I vote for this ... we ecofemmers are always working on balancing
personal truth with safe haven. I liked Joy's comments regarding sexual
acceptance, too ... I'm interested, personally, in what both Joy and
Bertina have to say; as long as no one's telling *me* how to think, I'll
happy listen to everyone!
Faith
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed May 3 11:20:37 MDT 1995
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 13:21:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bertina Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: David Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Democrats are Capitalists
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I disagree. Just because in the last election the Republicans won out in
just about all positions does not mean the left is almost nonexistant!
More than likely there were more angry voters out there than satisfied
voters and they happened to believe the best way out was to vote against
alot of democrats that had been in office for a long time. This is I
think a trend on voting longterm public officials out of office than
against the democrats. An example of that is in 1992, a senator in my
state of GA, Whyche Fowler-Dem, was voted out of office in favor of a
conservative republican, even though the majority of voters voted for
Clinton in GA at the same time. Many of what the left proposes also is
not supported by the majority of voters. I am sure either these
extremists will change their ways or get voted out next election!
Bertina
On Tue, 2 May 1995, David Schulz wrote:
> I agree with Michael. Gore Vidal also said that he sensed "the faint
> whift of the Wymar Republic", which historically had crumbled so rapidly
> that people found themselves isolated. We have in a sense returned to
> this isolation of the Wymar with the 'Gingrich revolution' and the left
> has shrunken to almost inexistence. In my opinion what the left needs is
> not what the democrats have to offer. Movements of all kinds (indigenous
> peoples movements, feminist movements, minority movements) need to retain
> their identity, yet come together and define what the left means. I am
> probally doing a great disservice to Riane Eisler, however in her book
> "The Chalice and the Blade" she talks about the dominator mentality and
> how this ideology (historically forwarded by men) is at the root of the
> inequalities (environmentally, socially, economically) of our world
> today. Eisler forwards the idea of 'parternships' that work at
> abandoning domination, and work toward cooperation. In my opinion this
> is what the 'left' needs to regain its voice. The 'right' has its
> stock issues that it mobilizes people around and people of this country
> know what their voting for. The left has become, in too many instances,
> stratified groups of interbickering personal/politcal agendas that are
> not open to change. I do not mean to take away anything from
> social movements that has achieved many things, however we need to
> celebrate our differences while working together to restore the balance
> we need to survive.
>
> D.S.
>
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed May 3 11:24:55 MDT 1995
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 13:25:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bertina Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Toshihide Hamazaki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Forwaded message (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Oh did I forget advocating Cloning? Im sorry!
Bertina
On Tue, 2 May 1995, Toshihide Hamazaki wrote:
>
> > Yes! Lets promote lesbianism on this list!
> > Bertina
>
> It's very interesting idea. I have once talked with an evolutionary
> biologist who is also a feminist about this idea. According to her, this
> does not work very well because female needs male to have a reproduction.
> If a lesbian does not want a child that's fine. Her gene will never goes
> to next generation. So she is out of evolutionary process. But if she
> want a offspring, she has to find a sperm carrier (male) unless she is the
> Virgin Marry. The question is where she gets a sperm which is advantageous
> to her evolutionary success? A good sperm carrier would choose may choose
> female who is cooperative or subordiant to him for his mate. A good sperm
> will be a scarce resource. The consequence is a competion among females.
> According to the evolutionary biologist, the competition between females is
> more deadly than that of males. In conclusion, increase of lesbianism does
> not work than you think from the perspective of evolutionary biology.
> Increase of lesbianism is fine if there is also an increase of gay. Shortage
> of avairable female also means increase of competition among sperm carriers or
> increase of forceful reproductive behavior of sperm carrier to female, which is
> called rape in human term....
> Toshihide
>
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed May 3 11:31:25 MDT 1995
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 13:24:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bertina Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Maureen McKnight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sexual Orientation
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My indirect point exactly!
Bertina
On Tue, 2 May 1995, Maureen McKnight wrote:
>
> Seems that Barbara had a tongue-in-cheek statement turn into
> a debate on sexual orientation. C'mon, where's Ecofeminism
> in these posts?? I would be much more interested in reading
> your ideas on sexuality if it had something to do with how
> human beings are trying to understand the wisdom of the earth.
>
> Maureen
>
>
>
> > >> > Womyn could band together and have a sex strike. It worked in Ancient
> > >> > Greece. :) :)
> > >>
> > >> Hmm. Another interesting idea....stop having sex with male
> > >> colleagues???
> > >>
> > >> Barbara Bliss
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >Yes! Lets promote lesbianism on this list!
> > >
> > >Bertina
> >
> > I hope, Bertina, that you were trying to be funny. It would help, if when
> > you say things like that if you would put an emoticon such as a :-) or a ;-)
> > after such a statement.
> >
> > Promote it????? WHat are you trying to say, convert people? Women are or
> > they are not. 'skind of like Paganism, you don't convert.
> >
> > This was a weird thing to say Bertina.
> >
> > While I am definitely an advocate for Gay and Lesbian Rights, I am bi and
> > polyamourous. And while I am more than willing to explain why, and how that
> > works, I am not going to tell anyone they should be polyamourous or
> > bi(though I personally believe that more people are polyamourous then they
> > realize.)
> > Sexual preferences and proclivities are a personal choice, based on many
> > factors. The choice of sexual lovestyle is as personal as the choice of
> > religion. Are you, Bertina, advocating that we should recruit people to
> > become lesbians? There isn't one "right" way of sexuality. Homosexuality,
> > heterosexuality and bisexuality all have their place in the wide spectrum of
> > human sexual expression.
>
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed May 3 11:59:18 MDT 1995
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 10:59:22 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Cuddlemonster/Joy Williams)
Subject: Re: Lesbianism and Lightening Up
At 10:14 AM 5/3/95 -0600, Coyote1 wrote:
>
>Hi folks, I'm back - I've missed you.
>
>Katharine, Joy, Bertina; Seems this is a serious issue, at least for
>Bertina and maybe we should take it seriously for her sake and for the
>sake of others on the list who are not so bold as Bertina but who lurk
>looking for support or affirmation.
Sigh, Jacque I can only surmise that you didn't read my second response
before you answered this. I am not at all *not* offering her support in her
lovestyle choice. If that is what she wants to be then so be it, that is
her right. And no one here is not saying that she can't be or shouldn't be
lesbian.
>
>Maybe what we could discuss among ourselves is promoting freedom of
>sexual expression? Bertina's gonna love me using a pagan expression to
>support her request, but - as the goddess Aphrodite says: `All acts of
>love and pleasure are my rituals'
That's exactly the point I made in my secondary response. And that we can
no more "recruit" members to be lesbians, then any other lovestyle choice.
I would certainly try to refrain from "promoting" bisexuality. That is a
personal choice.
>
>I can imagine that with all the `family values' hoohaa and anti-gay
>temper in politics these days, Bertina and others feel a need for our
>support and acceptance. I think they'd like to feel that this is a safe
>haven where they can come and discuss issues pertinent to them in that
>context. And I think we can offer them that - can we not?
Of course.
Joy Williams
Scion, Church of All Worlds
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thou art God/dess!
