Tone can be difficult to convey over the net, but I had an idea about
how we can circumvent difficult discussions over whether someone is
being arrogant, pretentious, etc. On those days when
we're feeling particularly full of ourselves, we might sign off with
"just my 4 cents worth" (or the equivalent in non-US currency). On
the other hand, when we feel like being self-deprecating we might
sign off with "just my 1 cent worth," etc. This way we have an
objective meter for determining exactly how arrogant a poster is on
any particular day (assuming, of course, we can all be trusted to
sign off accurately) ...
just trying to lighten the mood about 2 grams,
Brian :)
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 02:01:50 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 02:01:49 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 01:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Affleck-Asch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: brian
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:59:43 -0600 (MDT)
> From: anne jordan dashiell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Brian A. Luke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: brian
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> brian,
>
> you are writing too much on this list. and since you ARE a man..woops i
> mean since you are penised...it comes across as silencing, intimidating
> and paternalistic. you dont have to give your opinion to every single
> thing said you know. the list will go on without your input.
>
> anne
Anne,
Qui custodis censorii?
While I very frequently disagree with what Brian does post, I don't think
it's appropriate to say the above, regardless of his gender.
Unless someone's being abusive in their posts, it would be better to make
such a comment via private e-mail, than as a public rebuke.
I mean, it's not like he's turning this into alt.feminism or soc.women,
after all ....
William Affleck-Asch | The above is my personal opinion only and does not
Seattle | necessarily reflect the opinions of any of the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | many organizations I belong to or represent. :-)
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 02:07:47 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 02:07:47 1994
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From: William Affleck-Asch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: electronic NOW Membership Brochure (avail via anonymous FTP)
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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In case anyone's interested, the electronic NOW Membership Brochure is
available via anonymous FTP at eskimo.com in the /feminist subdirectory
along with the old version of the NOW Statement of Principles. Both
files are in ASCII Text format (*.TXT) and in PKZip 2.04g format (*.ZIP).
The electronic NOW Membership Brochure (wa.st.now.txt or WASTNOW.ZIP)
also includes some of the chapters that have Net addresses - if there are
NOW chapters not listed with contacts that wish to be listed, contact me
via email (I'm also on Compuserve) with permission to do so.
William Affleck-Asch | The above is my personal opinion only and does not
Seattle | necessarily reflect the opinions of any of the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | many organizations I belong to or represent. :-)
^- e.g. Washington State NOW Treasurer
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 09:05:42 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 09:05:41 1994
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Subject: Fertility rituals
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Hi all. Just a request. I'm doing a paper on women's fertility rituals/rites
of passage/cults and since we've been discussing women and nature (I think it
was here anyway) I was wondering if I could borrow some references from any of
you either on specific culture's fertility rituals or on women's rituals in
general. It would be much appreciated.
You can send them to me privately to keep clutter down on-line, though it does
seem to have quieted around these parts.
Tj.
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 09:25:06 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 09:25:05 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 08:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Faith BarrGlover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Food Chain & Spirituality
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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I've kept quiet during the met/veggie debate because I feel so
ambivalent. Actually, since I'm allergic to nearly all vegetable protein
sources I found I could not be a successful vegetarian when I attempted
it ... however, I HATE the way animals which are prepared as food inour
culture are treated ... and, yes, I've seen a slaughterhouse.
I am lucky enough to live in the Seattle area, where a great consumer
co-op supports my desire for humane treatment of my meals, and I spend a
little extra to be assured that the animals and some kind of life before
they ended up on my plate ... and they're on my plate only three or four
times a week. That's the best I can do, although it still troubles me.
I consider myself a mystic; spirituality is the most important component
of my life, and the sense of connection with All That Is is what makes
life worth living for me.
However, TJ, in non-answer to your question, here's one meat-eating
spiritual person on the list.
PS ... does anyone have a bibliography on human physiology with regard to
vegetarian/omnivorous eating? All the "facts" cited in this debate have
seemed to be diametrically opposed.
Faith Barr-Glover
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 09:38:31 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 09:38:30 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 08:43:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Faith BarrGlover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anne's comments re:Brian
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Actually, anne, it's still your perception. I, personally, don't think
Brian posts too much, and I was surprised when you labeled his posts
arrogant. I =think= maybe he pushes your personal buttons ... and I am
especially troubled by your comment that others had supported your
comments by direct email to you. This troubles me because it smacks of the
kind of vicious, behind-the-hands, smiling whispers that high school and
middle school kids (dare I say mostly girls?) still do to emphasize that
the "victim" is not "one of them."
There's gotta be a better way to handle this, and I agree that it might
be best if you directed your comments about him to him in the future.
The basis of my philosophy in life is that everyone/thing deserves to be
treated with respect, whether or not I like or disagree with it/them. I
believe that you, and Brian, deserve to be treated with respect and
dignity, and I feel diminished and wounded when I see people attacking
each other.
Perhaps this is an essential element in the meat/veggie debate as well
... not necessarily that the various human respect each other's food
choices, but that WE respect the beings with whom we share the planet ...
and how can that bet be accomplished?
Faith
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 09:48:13 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 09:48:13 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 08:51:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Faith BarrGlover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The list.
To: "JOHN W. ADAMS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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On Thu, 6 Oct 1994, JOHN W. ADAMS wrote:
> Perhaps guilt and responsibility are two names we give to the same
> phenomenon. When we react in one way, we get guilt. In another way,
> responsibility. And perhaps guilt is personal, responsibility is
> political, and the relationship between the two is complex.
Veeeery interesting comment ... this will keep me going for days! Thank you.
>
> 5) What I'd like to see more of on the list is accounts of people's
> practices. What do you do in the community and how does eco-feminism
> inform you as you do it? How do the theories you hold stand up to use?
> How have you changed your ideas as they've collided with your problems?
> What have you become more certain of? What don't you have a clue about
> any more? And why?
>
John, I like this a lot ... and I would find discussions on these
subjects fruitful, personally beneficial, and interesting.
A final point ... I'm finding the down side of Internet/Usenet is the
astonishing amount of anger, rage and outright rudeness. Perhaps it's my
age ... but (going back to my earlier comments about respect), while
anger is a legitimate feeling (and one that deserves respect), I don't
find it adds much substance or information to a discussion group ... and
it seems usually to take a worthwhile subject with interesting
participants and turn them into nit-picking, hair-tearing nastiness.
Witness my last post re: anne & Brian. I'm already upset about my snide
remark regarding high school/middle school kids.
Faith
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 10:14:49 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 10:14:48 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 09:17:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: fertility rites
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Tj writes:
<Hi all. Just a request. I'm doing a paper on women's fertility rituals/rites
of passage/cults and since we've been discussing women and nature (I think it
was here anyway) I was wondering if I could borrow some references from any of
you either on specific culture's fertility rituals or on women's rituals in
general."
this is the first time i have posted on this list and i have a similar request
as the one above. i too am doing a paper on fertility rituals and more
aspects of these two topics. you can email me at my own address any info.,
book lists, etc.. i would truly appreciate it greatly. also, if anyone would
care to share their own personal birth stories and any spiritual significance
it had (i definitely saw it as a spiritual rite of passage when i gave birth
to my son) these would be greatly appreciated as well.
anyway, thanks to you all.
cathy
..
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 10:35:26 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 10:35:25 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 09:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Faith BarrGlover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Respect, Lively Discussions etc
To: Multiple recipients of list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Sometimes I don't get my point till I stop talking ...
Here's what's important to me about the Anne/Brian meat/veggie
flames/manners dualities:
1) I have found EVERYTHING that's happened so far in this discussion
group FASCINATING ... Lalonde, Prof. Gadfly ... and *especially* anne and
Brian. You have really gotten my brain cells cranking.
2) When I run into a posted flame it "feels" the same to me, whether
or not I'm the addressee; kind of like a smack in the face with a cold
dishrag. Unpleasant, to say the least. That's just me, and I've dropped
off a couple of lists because reading/sending flames is just not how I
want to spend my time and energy.
3) I am looking forward to the time when we can get off our respective
hobby horses and work together on some practical issues of ecofeminism, as
mentioned in an earlier post.
4) I also would like to see more of the scholarly, such as information
regarding research, bibliographies, and so on.
5) Ecofeminism is, to me, our hope for the future. Perhaps that's why
each of us is so anxious to have others understand our position. I feel
as though I now have a working understanding of the viewpoints of the most
active list contributors ;-]
how 'bout we move on soon to some discussions of action and being rather
than thought?
Faith
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 11:20:57 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 11:20:56 1994
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Subject: biology = morality?
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 13:18:01 -0400 (EDT)
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Biology = Morality?
The fall is beautiful here in the Cleveland forest. It is
uplifting. How is everybody?
Many have given the opinion that our location in
the "food chain" justifies our killing of animals for food. This
leads me to question the relationship between biology and
morality.
Paul Taylor clarified the autonomy of morality from biology
in his book Respect for Nature.
He states that
"How should human culture fit into the order of nature?"
is not a question of "biological fit,"
but a question that confronts humans as "moral
agents."
Is it not reasonable to consider biological facts only as
"partial reality" to base our moral judgement?
Is biology = morality?
Red Pine from the Cleveland forest
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 16:01:55 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 16:01:54 1994
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Subject: Re: animals and humans
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 17:03:51 -0500
Roxanne points out:
"humans seem to be able to reason and think beyond daily tasks to
understand our place in the universe consciously, while other animals
seem to know it instinctively. whats so funny is we dont seem to know it
instinctively..or maybe just not anymore."
We assume that other animals are not consciously aware of the world because
of our own inablility to penetrate the communication barrier with them. They
communicate with each other, and in some cases (I am thinking of my cats and
dogs) with other species, but rarely (again sometimes I think I hear my cat's
voice :) ) can humans interact fully with animals. Because of this, we assume
that we are superior in thinking ability because we cannot know what it is that
they think. Maybe we are inferior. Maybe other animal species pity us our
closed brains.
amy
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 16:03:55 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Oct 10 16:03:54 1994
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To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: oops
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 17:05:52 -0500
I am sorry, I misread the post that I just quoted. It was anne dashiell that
I quoted. The post was sent to Roxanne
amy
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Oct 11 10:53:20 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Oct 11 10:53:19 1994
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From: "LALONDE ROXANNE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: Dept. of Geography, Univ. of Alta.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 11:00:21 MDT
Subject: Re: animals and humans
Priority: normal
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Just a clarification: I didn't write that. I think it was Anne, given
her prefered style of no caps, no apostrophes.
> Roxanne points out:
>
> "humans seem to be able to reason and think beyond daily tasks to
> understand our place in the universe consciously, while other animals
> seem to know it instinctively. whats so funny is we dont seem to know it
> instinctively..or maybe just not anymore."
>
> We assume that other animals are not consciously aware of the world because
> of our own inablility to penetrate the communication barrier with them. They
> communicate with each other, and in some cases (I am thinking of my cats and
> dogs) with other species, but rarely (again sometimes I think I hear my cat's
> voice :) ) can humans interact fully with animals. Because of this, we assume
> that we are superior in thinking ability because we cannot know what it is that
> they think. Maybe we are inferior. Maybe other animal species pity us our
> closed brains.
>
> amy
>
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Oct 11 10:54:01 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Oct 11 10:54:00 1994
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From: "LALONDE ROXANNE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: Dept. of Geography, Univ. of Alta.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 11:01:22 MDT
Subject: Re: oops
Priority: normal
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Oops myself. I should read ALL my mail before I respond to something.
Sorry for the extra clutter.
> I am sorry, I misread the post that I just quoted. It was anne dashiell that
> I quoted. The post was sent to Roxanne
>
> amy
>
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Oct 11 14:50:30 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Oct 11 14:50:29 1994
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (James Roper)
Posted-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:52:14 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ECOFEM digest 41
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:52:14 -0400 (EDT)
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Hi Faith,
Just a suggestion for those allergy-prone would-be vegetarians. Dairy
products cause any problems? Are grains the allergy problem and if so,
what plant families do those grains belong to? There are many
alternatives to any specific grain. And, unfortunately, we seem to think
we need a lot more protein than we (especially post-pubescent) need. And
if you would prefer not to kill animals, then what about dairy and eggs?
Supplemented with non-allergic fruit and vegetables? I find an oxymoron
with "humane" and then "eating." Woudl anybody call us humane if we
sedated people first, then killed them, then ate them? Or would we say
that we were just MORE humane than if we just outright killed, cooked and
ate without concern for the pain? I guess I think humane means to live
and let live.
About morals and nature. Morals are a human invention. Enough said,
except I'll say a little bit more. That means our morals are
disconnected from evolution. So, the consepquences fo evolutin do not
inform us of how to make moral decisions. So we can't use "nature made
us that way" for justification of any of our actions (except sex maybe...
:-) Rather, we must decide through different means how to behave, and
that usually means our impact on others/the earth. Once we see that, and
why, then we rephrase our questions and our answers that we will accept,
and we start on the road to solving some problems. IMHO, or maybe IMO,
since few accuse me of humility (humor, yes, on a good day).
--
Jim
____________________________________________________________________
James J. Roper | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Pensylvania | Voice: (215)898-3100
Dept of Biology, Leidy Labs | FAX: (215)898-8780
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6018 |
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>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Oct 11 21:58:37 MDT 1994
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Oct 11 21:58:36 1994
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Date: 12 Oct 1994 16:58:13 +1200
From: "STEFANIE S. RIXECKER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: call for papers grad/undergrad conference
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Here's some forwarded information for everyone. Sorry about any
cross-posts. Stefanie
Call for Papers
NO LIMITS: Reclaiming Women's Voices
A Regional Conference Sponsored by the
Women's Studies Association of the University of Nebraska-Lincoln
March 3-4, 1995
No Limits is an annual conference dedicated to crossing boundaries
between disciplines and exploring a wide range of women's issues.
We invite proposals from undergraduate and graduate students as
well as members of the community on any topic related to women's
issues, lives, and culture. Creative writing, visual arts, film,
music, performance and academic papers are welcome.
Please submit one 500 word abstract outlining your proposed
presentation by
Thursday, December 1, 1994
to
No Limits Conference
c/o Women's Studies Program
University of Nebraska-Lincoln
337 Andrews Hall
Lincoln, NE 68588-0303
Inquiries: 402-472-9392
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
No e-mail abstracts please
Notifications sent January 15, 1995
