Most silviculture in practice is little more than tree-farming.  There is
a lot of confusion in the ranks due to the varied forest management
strategies running from a bonifide tree farm to the ecosystem we know as a
forest.  A treefarm is no different than a cornfield, having grown up in
the cornfields and now living amongst the treefarms.  However, I would
rather have a privately owned treefarm and leave the US forests as forests
than the alternative.

Malcolm

On Fri, November 23, 2007 9:45 am, Andrew Park wrote:
> Yasemin Baytok makes a good point.  Obviously, we must avoid extending
> the breadth of what is taught so far that any connection to the
> original discipline (Ecology) disappears.
>
> There are, however, eclogical aspects of of environmental engineering
> and forest engineering that can be taught or metnioned. Afterall,
> would it not be a rather poor environmental engineer who knew nothing
> about ecology? Same these days with forestry.
>
> Also, I think we are dealing here with a difference int he way words
> are used in different languages.  In Spanish and many other languages,
> what English speakers call a "Forester" is called a "Forest Engineer".
>   They do the same thing essentially, but the introduction of the word
> "engineer" amy create subtle differences in disciplinary emphasis.
> Our main text on silviculture here in North America (Smith et al) is
> called "The practice of Silviculture: applied forest ecology".
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
> Quoting yasemin baytok <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> Dear Ecologgers,
>>
>> With all do respect, I disagree with Andy's view that there is no
>> separation
>> between environmental and ecological science. I'm frustrated cause,
>> unfortunately in my country, Turkey, Environmental science =
>> environmental
>> engineering-agricultural engineering-forest engineering = Ecology! And
>> they
>> seem liked to be so called "ecologist" and even believed they are. The
>> danger is they give lectures about ecology even they do not perform any
>> ecological research in their life. So, "When they are talking about
>> environmental science, generally they are not talking about aspects of
>> ecology" as he mentioned. With this defective situation you figure out
>> the
>> students' perception of ecology as a science, not mentioning basic
>> principles of ecology. So here both sciences are misrepresented somehow.
>> Of
>> course, we have rare 'silent' ecologists and emerging ones that they
>> grown.
>> Still, ecology is minor science and few eminent universities hesitate to
>> give us a graduate degree on "the" ecology.
>>
>> Nowadays, as being attempting to teach current ecological issues and
>> their
>> interconnectedness with the social sciences for non-biology majors, I
>> start
>> with the definition and separation of these sciences as emphasizing
>> interactions with each others and the others sciences as well.
>>
>> Here two different definitions for "environmental science":
>>
>> The  <http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/BRANCH> branch of
>> <http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/BIOLOGY> biology
>> <http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/CONCERNED> concerned with the
>> <http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/RELATIONS> relations between
>> <http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/ORGANISM> organisms and their
>> <http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/ENVIRONMENT> environment - syn:
>> <http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/ECOLOGY> ecology,
>> <http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/BIONOMICS> bionomics
>>
>> The science which studies the interaction between man and the
>> environment,
>> emphasizing the links between different subjects related to this issue,
>> including ecology
>> <http://www.allwords.com/?SearchType=3&Keyword=ecology> ,
>> economics <http://www.allwords.com/?SearchType=3&Keyword=economics> ,
>> geography <http://www.allwords.com/?SearchType=3&Keyword=geography> ,
>> geology <http://www.allwords.com/?SearchType=3&Keyword=geology> ,
>> meteorology <http://www.allwords.com/?SearchType=3&Keyword=meteorology>
>> ,
>> politics <http://www.allwords.com/?SearchType=3&Keyword=politics>  and
>> sociology <http://www.allwords.com/?SearchType=3&Keyword=sociology> .
>>
>> After I saw the first definition, I found myself asking what the
>> definition
>> Ecology then was!!! Second one seems quite fair to me.
>>
>> I know that the definition of environmental sciences is broad,
>> overlapping
>> the natural sciences, the social sciences, and engineering. But I really
>> do
>> separate out environmental and ecological science:
>>
>> Environmental science and Ecology are different fields of study,
>> although
>> there is some overlap due to the multidisciplinary nature of
>> environmental
>> science. Ecology is the study of the interrelations of living organisms
>> and
>> their environment, whether at the population, community, or ecosystem
>> level.
>> In contrast, environmental science is a broad area of study including
>> diverse areas such as atmospheric sciences, soil chemistry,
>> pollution-toxicology (water/air/soil quality), environmental
>> law/economics/politics and biological responses of systems to
>> anthropogenic
>> influence.
>>
>> I sum up this subject with the comment of few scientists from The
>> American
>> Institute of Biological Sciences, (AIBS) ' Comments on Draft Taxonomy of
>> Life Sciences, 2003:
>>
>> "Another issue we request the Committee reconsider is the association of
>> Ecology and Environmental Science. There is a common public
>> misconception
>> that all ecological research is also environmental research. While there
>> is
>> certainly a strong link between the two disciplines, they are unique.
>> Environmental science has historically been a discipline that includes
>> non-biological sciences and is focused on solving environmental
>> problems. In
>> short, environmental science is largely an interdisciplinary applied
>> science. While ecology has also grown and benefited from increased
>> interdisciplinary collaboration, it is largely a basic science. While
>> what
>> is learned from ecological research can and should inform environmental
>> science and policy, ecology is not by definition an environmental
>> science as
>> environmental science is generally defined. We request the Committee
>> reconsider its linkage of Ecology with Environmental Science. Each
>> discipline is robust enough to warrant consideration as an independent
>> discipline with subfields."
>>
>> I'll appreciate your thoughts.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Yasemin Erguner Baytok, PhD candidate
>>
>>
>>
>


Malcolm L. McCallum
Assistant Professor of Biology
Editor Herpetological Conservation and Biology
http://www.herpconbio.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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