If LORs have largely reached a point of perfunctory communication, letter writers and letter requesters SHOULD complain. There is a lot of unnecessary and/or illogical box-ticking in academia; post-docs/professors are over-worked. Writing letters that are destined to be ignored because the applicant didn't survive the initial culling is a waste of time and an added stress for both the applicant and referee with no benefit. Perhaps the only use of requiring LORs for the initial application is that some applicants may not be successful in finding three referees willing to back them up because of work integrity, personal qualities, etc...but that will come out in the wash if the hiring body makes a long-list, then asks for LORs, makes a short-list based on those, then hire.
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Judith Weis <[email protected]> wrote: > Letter-writers shouldn't complain. They have it a lot easier than back in > the days when each letter had to be typed out separately on a typewriter. > Now we have a template letter for a given student and just modify it for > the particular position and change the address. Much easier! > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news < > [email protected]> on behalf of kapil K.Khadka < > [email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 31, 2017 2:47:10 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [ECOLOG-L] Need for letters for job applications > > I agree with Brian and I have been going through this phase for the last > couple of months. As a PhD student in a track of graduation, I am applying > for a Postdoc position. And, everytime I apply I need to ask for letters > from the referees. So far I have found them happy enough for writing a > letter. Sadly, I don't even get a reply from the place I applied for saying > (at least) " Hey! I received your applications but was not competitive > enough for the position"! > > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 9:22 AM, John Anderson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> at the same time, both as someone who writes letters and someone who has >> seen an applicant move from the "ah, whatever" to the "let's talk" pile >> based on a good letter of reference, I would encourage all of you to keep >> writing & keep reading. >> >> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Fidele Bognounou < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Brian, >>> Very good point! >>> There are even potential candidates that will not apply for a position >>> because they don't want to keek annoying the providers of the letters. >>> >>> Fidele >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 9:27 PM, Patrick, Brian <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear colleagues, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have noticed over the years a significant increase in the number of >>>> position announcements that state that full applications must include three >>>> letters of reference. As someone who has been on numerous search >>>> committees, has written a fair number of letters of recommendation, and has >>>> applied for a fair number of jobs, I can honestly say that this is >>>> exceptionally inconvenient to applicants, to those writing the letters, and >>>> not necessary for an initial application. A list of at least three >>>> references should be sufficient for an initial application. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Let’s be honest, in a large stack of applications, only a few tend to >>>> bubble to the top, and they extremely-rarely-to-virtually-never do so >>>> because of their recommendations. Search committees, please do NOT require >>>> three letters up front. It is largely unnecessary and extremely >>>> inconvenient (for the candidate and letter writers) to provide this >>>> information if the candidate doesn’t even make the cut for a phone >>>> interview. It’s a wasted effort for the vast majority of job applicants >>>> and for those writing those letters for the vast majority of job >>>> applicants. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In short, ask for a list of references only. If letters from those >>>> references are needed from a few candidates for whatever reason, then make >>>> the request after making the initial trim of the pool to the candidate >>>> list. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If you do not have a choice whether or not this is required, then it >>>> needs to be explained to the HR person or whoever makes that call that it >>>> is largely an inconvenient waste of many people’s time to provide the >>>> letters up front. It is always better to ask for a list of references. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for your time and for letting me express my opinion on this >>>> topic. Too many young scientists are put in awkward positions because they >>>> have to ask for 14 letters from the same few people. Personally, I try to >>>> personalize each letter I write to the institution or type of job for which >>>> the candidate is applying. It gets very annoying to have to provide this >>>> when a colleague applies for a job that may be a stretch for them (but they >>>> should still apply!). I think they should apply, and I want them to >>>> apply—my ire lies with the committees that make that up-front request for >>>> all applicants. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you again for your time! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> L. Brian Patrick, Ph.D. >>>> >>>> Associate Professor of Biology >>>> >>>> Department of Biological Sciences >>>> >>>> Dakota Wesleyan University >>>> >>>> 1200 W. University Ave. >>>> >>>> Mitchell, SD 57301 USA >>>> >>>> Office: 605-995-2712 <(605)%20995-2712> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> John Anderson >> W.H. Drury Professor of Ecology/Natural History >> College of the Atlantic >> 105 Eden St >> Bar Harbor >> ME 04609 >> > > -- Tiff Stephens | Postdoctoral Fellow College of Fisheries & Ocean Sciences University of Alaska Fairbanks 17101 Point Lena Loop Road Juneau, AK 99801 http://www.tiffstephens.com/
