> Andre Roberge schrieb:
Also, because rur-ple basic instructions [move(), pick_beeper(),
put_beeper(), turn_left(), turn_off()] are very limited, they are
easier to learn and build from, I think, than the corresponding turtle
graphics where one has to contend with arbitrary rotations and
arbitrary step lengths right from the start... This is, I believe,
one advantage of having a "closed universe", at least at the
beginning.
Personally I disagree.
First I was very attracted by Rur-ple sleek look and tested it a month ago.
Even if the app itself is great I found I was disturbed with important things for me:
- the representation of Rur-ple "world" is from above, with what you call avenues and streets, unfortunately in this representation the robot is represented from the side and you mix this two spatial representations together which I think is miss-leading.
Do you think it's possible to be consistent in a future version (as an option ?) : if the world is seen from above the robot is also seen from above in this world (and not from the side). ?
- For the sake of simplicity you've decided that the robot can only turn left but never right. For me it makes Rur-ple quite "silly" and above all this apparent "simplicity" (you can't go right) is generating *complexity* quickly.
For example if rur-ple want to climb a simple step he must do in your example:
---
# climb step---
turn_left()
move()
turn_left()
turn_left()
turn_left()
move()
move()
For me It is not simple and intuitive and is by far more difficult than a "Logo" approach.
(also even if I build a turn_right() function I'll see Rur-ple going left, left, left )
However, not having had the benefit of
reading your book, my *guess* (and it is only a guess) is that the
more initially restrictive environment of rur-ple provides an easier
learning environment at the very beginning. But I could well be
wrong!
I think a robot environment is a valid and a good way to learn Python but I don't agree when you compare Rur-ple as a more powerful alternative to the concepts behind Logo:
http://aroberge.blogspot.com/2006/04/thoughts-on-shuttleworth-summit.html
The principles behind behind Logo are powerful, it's not just a little turtle to move around to produce graphics.
For example you could say to a kid that a circle is "simply" x**2 + y**2 = R**2 ...
but with the turtle you can also have a more internal (and "kinesthésique" representation) by saying that a circle is also: move, turn a little and repeat the same... It gives to a kid an intuition/experience of differential math (essential in science) at a very young age.
I really advise people to read/re-read the "mindstorms" book which is essential to understand what are the math and consturctivits concepts behind the turtle:
http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/products/books.html
Ok I've finished my "french blood" complaints, sorry for being out-spoken, apart from that I think Rur-ple is great :)
francois
Peace logo: how appropriate!
> I definitely feel that both approaches are valuable and can and
> should live in parallel. I'm in no way a fundamantalist. (I just had
> to decide what approach to use for my book - and there of course
> I have to propose lessons in a well designed sequence ...)
I think that having different people exploring different approaches
may yield better ideas in the end (as long as some communication takes
place between the two)
> (I wonder if this topic were interesting also for the edu-sig list?)
>
I think it might be. You have my permission to forward this message
directly to the list if you wish, and we can continue this discussion
in public, hopefully generating comments from others.
> This all said with only a very superfical impression of your system.
> Nevertheless I'd be intersted in translating it to German, if nobody
> else will undertake it, but i must ask you to understand that I'll
> certainly will not have time to do it before September/October.
I understand and appreciate the tentative offer of a translation.
> I hope that I expressed myself clearly enough - i fear my English is not
> elaborate enough for such more 'philosophical' discussions.
I believe that your English is just as good as mine, and I feel it is
more than adequate to have these type of discussions (however
frustrating it might feel when we are looking for the appropriate
English idiom to express our thoughts.)
And if anyone complains, challenge them to carry a conversation in
German if they are not happy! (I'll do the same for French ;-)
Thanks for your comments and your xturtle work!
Regards,
André
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